Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

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drumdude
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Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by drumdude »

I've briefly summarized and numbered the points in the modern "shotgun approach" to highlight just how schizophrenic the apologetic arguments have become on this issue:
  1. Parts of the explanations match what Egyptologists think (which parts, Gee?)
  2. Taken as a whole the facsimiles don't match Joseph's explanation.
  3. In many instances Joseph's explanations accurately reflect Egyptian and Semitic concepts.
  4. We don't know what to compare the facsimiles to.
  5. Joseph could have given an interpretation that ancient Egyptians held.
  6. Joseph could have given an interpretation that a small group of priests held.
  7. Joseph could have given an interpretation that only Abraham held.
  8. Joseph could have given an interpretation that some other unknown small group held.
  9. Joseph could have given an interpretation that was only meant for us now for our spiritual growth.
  10. We have no idea what Joseph was doing.
  11. Critics have never said anything of value beyond "seriously wanting" arguments regarding facsimile 3.
  12. Joseph's explanations of facsimile 3 are becoming more plausible but still don't match up.
  13. Joseph hit some bullseyes that have to be accounted for by critics. They are impossible unless Joseph was divinely inspired, until proven otherwise by critics.
And the original:
DCP wrote:I return, yet again, to BYU Studies Quarterly 61/4 (2022), which is a special issue of the regular quarterly publication BYU Studies. It was created by four faithful Latter-day Saint Egyptologists — Stephen O. Smoot (Ph.D. candidate, Catholic University of America), John Gee (Ph.D., Yale University), Kerry Muhlestein (Ph.D., University of California at Los Angeles), and John S. Thompson (Ph.D., University of Pennsylvania) — and bears its own unique title: A Guide to the Book of Abraham. As I’ve previously indicated, it represents something of a state-of-the-question survey from people who are thoroughly familiar with the topic and the issues. I’ve tried to state as clearly as I’m capable of stating it that I am largely quoting bottom-line conclusions. I am not claiming to reproduce the evidence and the arguments on which those bottom-line conclusions are based. For such evidence and arguments you should consult A Guide to the Book of Abraham itself.

Book of Abraham Facs. 2
Facsimile 2 from the Book of Abraham
(Wikimedia Commons public domain image)
In a short section titled “Approaching the Facsimiles” (209-214), the authors first lay out a number of contrasting paradigms for understanding the Book of Abraham facsimiles and their relationship (or lack thereof) to the Book of Abraham itself. They note the all of them have strengths, but that none by itself seems to account for all the data.

Whichever paradigm one adopts, it seems clear that Joseph Smith’s explanations of the facsimiles were original to himself (none of the explanation appear next to the illustrations on the papyri he possessed). “There are aspects of [these explanations] that match what Egyptologists say they mean. Some [of them] are quite compelling. . . . However, as we look at the entirety of any of the facsimiles, an Egyptological interpretation does not match what Joseph Smith said about them.” This is complicated by the fact that even though not all of Joseph Smith’s explanations of the facsimiles in their entirety agree with how modern Egyptologists understand these illustrations, in many instances they do accurately reflect Egyptian and Semitic concepts. (211-212, quoting Professor Kerry Muhlestein)

There is a fundamental problem in choosing between such paradigms or, thus far, in choosing to create an altogether new one:

Despite some important advances in scholarship, “we [still] do not [entirely] know to what we really should compare the facsimiles.” For instance, we must ask if Joseph Smith meant to give us “an interpretation [of the facsimiles] that ancient Egyptians would have held, or one that only a small group of priests interested in Abraham would have held, or something another group altogether would have held.” Or, alternatively, “was he giving us an interpretation we needed to receive for our spiritual benefit regardless of how any ancient groups would have seen these?” The fact is that we don’t know for sure. While we “can make a pretty good case for the idea that some Egyptians could have viewed Facsimile 1 the way Joseph Smith presents it, [we are still] not sure that is the methodology we should be employing. We just don’t enough about what Joseph Smith was doing to be sure about any possible comparisons or lack thereof.” (213)

Book of Abraham Facsimile No. 3
Facsimile 3 from the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price
Turning specifically to the third of the three Book of Abraham facsimiles, the authors write that

“Facsimile 3 has always been the most neglected of the three facsimiles in the Book of Abraham. Unfortunately, most of what has been said about this facsimile is seriously wanting at best and highly erroneous at worst.” Some valuable work in recent years . . . has helped . . . better situating this facsimile [Facsimile ] in its ancient Egyptian context. As that context has become clearer, elements of Joseph Smith’s explanations have become more plausible (although other elements remain at odds with current Egyptological theories). (214, quoting Professor John Gee)

And, finally, here is a very important point. I’ve italicized the last sentence in order to ensure that it isn’t overlooked:

Whichever theoretical paradigm one adopts in approaching the facsimiles, a respectable case can be made that with a number of his explanations Joseph Smith accurately captured ancient Egyptian concepts (and even scored a few bull’s-eyes with his explanations) that would have otherwise been beyond his natural ability to know. Any honest approach to the facsimiles must recognize this and take this into account. (213)
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... raham.html
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by Res Ipsa »

I thought you were referring to shooting the Book of Abraham with a shotgun. Seemed eminently sensible to me. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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malkie
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by malkie »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2023 7:41 pm
I thought you were referring to shooting the Book of Abraham with a shotgun. Seemed eminently sensible to me. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Too dramatic by half: in spite of your scaremongering, there's clearly no shooting involved. It's a simple statement telling us that a shotgun is getting closer to the Book of Abraham. Perhaps the slightly non-standard form (including the preposition "to") has led you astray.

Try reading it as "Shotgun Approaches the Book of Abraham", where "Approaches" is a verb, rather than a noun modified by "Shotgun" as an attributive noun or noun adjunct.

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drumdude
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by drumdude »

It really has to sneak up on it, as not to scare the holy book of scripture.
Philo Sofee
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by Philo Sofee »

You've inspired me. I am doing my live tomorrow night on this topic. Thanks man, see ya'all there!
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by markc »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2023 6:32 pm
9) Joseph could have given an interpretation that was only meant for us now for our spiritual growth.
When I was young I heard this argument the most, on pretty much everything, when facts seem to conflict with the church's teaching.

This reminds me of an experience I had. One of my closest friends went to BYUH as I did. One day he told me he asked a biology professor, a Mormon of course, why there were dinosaurs if the earth was created only for humans like the good old Bible seems to suggest. The professor replied something like "We don't know God's will, but who knows, maybe it's for us to have oil."

Even though we both were devoted Mormons at that time (I'm not, he still is), I knew this idea was horrible on so many levels. Luckily I was sitting, though I nearly fell off the chair. And just for the information, oil is not from dinosaurs--and he was a BIOLOGY PROFESSOR. Though this was like 1995 or so, I don't know if we knew that fact yet.

To be fair, I think it's not only the Mormon, but pretty much all churches or religions can potentially be self-centered enough to see things this way and somewhat ignore facts.
drumdude
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by drumdude »

You start with the conclusion that the church is true and work backwards.

It’s difficult to overstate how much clearer one’s thinking becomes once you free yourself from that mindset. As much as apologists like Daniel Peterson want to believe non-believers do the same thing, they couldn’t be more wrong.

There is no dogma in the non-religious community that even remotely compares to the mental gymnastics that Mormons and other religious people have to do to square the circle.
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by Fence Sitter »

Smith's facsimile explanations, that are somewhat close, can easily be explained by his what he learned though his conversations with Chandler.
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by markc »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:51 pm
You start with the conclusion that the church is true and work backwards.
Yup, exactly. In psychology, it's hindsight bias.
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Re: Shotgun Approaches to the Book of Abraham

Post by hauslern »

Something shared with the Backyard Professor:

If facsimile one is supposed to represent someone being sacrificed "fastened upon an alter" why is there a lion couch and the equipment both used for embalming is underneath (canopic vases)? Was the lion couch used in executions? When I asked someone at the University of Exeter their view on a photo of the original BOB and facsimile one they responded with this pic:

https://docs.google.com/doc...

Have you noticed in facsimile 2 Smith regularly gave interpretations of registers that contained pictures? However, it seems no effort was made to translate the registers that just contained writing. Would the seer stone have helped?

"Figures 12, 13,14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 will be given in the own due time of the Lord.”

Is not my question one that needs to be asked?
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