Proving the church true in the US court of law

[drumdude]

I want to remind you of Steve Densley’s rapidly approaching fireside in the greater Houston area. (See here for details of time and place and topic.) In one exceptionally weird corner of the internet, of course, the reviews of his remarks are already pouring in, days before those remarks will be delivered. I can’t help but think of Proverbs 18:13. And to think that some people actually deny the existence of prophecy!

Dan’s getting a bit loose with the respect for this very real and important power that The Brethren possess and exercise with sacred authority.

[Philo Sofee]

Authors that are hostile to the Church regularly portray Joseph Smith as a fraud, with a variety of descriptions. However, when these depictions are strung together to form a historical narrative, it is fraught with internal inconsistencies as well as contradictions to the historical record.

Kind of like prophets who under divine inspiration and revelation teach doctrines at one time that were accepted and confirmed true through the Holy Ghost only to later be repudiated and being told it was taught as false doctrine - Adam God.

There is nothing consistent with their own prophets under God's guidance. Until they get that beam out of their own eye, there is no mote to look at in critics' eyes.

[Tom]

I’ve noticed that the title of the fireside matches the name of the presentation that Br. Densley delivered at the 2023 FAIR Conference. I hope he’s not repeating his FAIR presentation.

I can’t help but think of Ecclesiastes 1:9.

[Dr Moore]

Reminds me of the "Day of Defense" booklet, sold to new missionaries in the MTC bookstore. I had a copy, studied it rigorously in my first area along with my companion and the zone leaders who shared an apartment with us. I fully believed that, not only did this booklet "prove" the Church was more true than all other denominations, but that it did so with authority and power drawn from the Bible.

This booklet bolstered my testimony as I talked with thousands of Christians who doubted our message, until about 1 year into the mission when I knocked on the door of a Baptist minister. He welcomed us in and proceeded to carefully and thoughtfully address every Biblical reference we pulled out in support of our message. He explained alternative interpretations of each scripture and masterfully flipped through dozens of other scriptural references, with context, in support of those interpretations. He schooled us for more than two hours, and then released us to go play with a welcome-back-anytime handshake. It was a small chink in my armor. I kept that book safely hidden at the bottom of my suitcase for the remainder of the mission.

I see it's still sold at Deseret Book.
https://www.deseretbook.com/product/3858679.html

[Rick Grunder]

A legal/court structure is likely no more suited to serious evaluation of history or theology than would be an advanced auto-body shop to diagnose a heart attack or perform coronary bypass surgery. Just my guess.

This all reminds me of a production that appeared when I was a first grader in elementary school. I was too young to read it then, and am too world-weary to read it now . . .

The Trial of the Stick of Joseph
https://archive.org/details/TrialOfTheS ... ew=theater (original 1954 version)

Later graphic version, as The Book of Mormon on Trial
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Tria ... 1973298872 (comic book format)

Comments a decade ago, on the "other" board
https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61 ... -on-trial/ (discussion)

[Philo Sofee]

A legal/court structure is likely no more suited to serious evaluation of history or theology than would be an advanced auto-body shop to diagnose a heart attack or perform coronary bypass surgery. Just my guess.

This all reminds me of a production that appeared when I was a first grader in elementary school. I was too young to read it then, and am too world-weary to read it now . . .

The Trial of the Stick of Joseph
https://archive.org/details/TrialOfTheS ... ew=theater (original 1954 version)

Later graphic version, as The Book of Mormon on Trial
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Mormon-Tria ... 1973298872 (comic book format)

Comments a decade ago, on the "other" board
https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61 ... -on-trial/ (discussion)

Rick you are a TREASURE! Great to see you hanging out here still. You are one of many great minds I LOVE to read around here, thank you for the links.

[yellowstone123]

I think it depends on who’s court you are in:

I’ve testified in courts where the burden of truth is beyond a reasonable doubt.

I’ve testified in court where clear and convincing was what the attorneys were trying to achieve.

And many times it just a preponderance of evidence which is something like 51 to 49.

Now use those burdens to prove the church is not true with all the shenanigans that has gone on for almost two hundred years and the church would lose in every one.

[Philo Sofee]

When and if anyone knows about how this went tonight, please DO keep us posted and let's see his logic and information and analysis. I wanna do a video on this one.

[Gadianton]

The Trial of the Stick of Joseph

Thanks Rick! This was the gold standard of the staged Mormon courtroom. It certainly came up in my senior seminary class. This book had totally slipped my mind until you brought it up.

I wonder if Densely has heard of it? The way he writes about his upcoming talk is as if he's the first one to think of the courtroom idea.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

As I was doing laundry today, I decided to read ‘The Moral Argument: A History' by Baggett & Walls between loads (it’s bed sheets day, alas!). This book has long been on my mind since I took to listening to Mozart’s Eine Kleine Nachtmusik Mvt. 2 and gently imbibing Dry Soda Co.'s Juniper Berry soda, with its crisp flavors of a juniper berry and piney, dry, high acidity tones that are best paired with quail, antipasto, portobello mushrooms, mussels, roasted potatoes and venison, in my crystal snifter. Ah yes, the aroma!

Anyway, how would ‘divine command’ theory, virtue ethics, and deontological perspectives filtered through the Mormon lens result in a favorable judgement for the Mormons?! I’m pretty sure damned minors and other mens’ wives are a nonstarter within the judeo-christian ontology! Dopey Dan can ironically quote, reference, and revere thinkers like Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Kant, and others who shaped discourse on morality and its connection to God, but good LORD if Joseph Smith and BRIGHAM YOUNG didn’t offer up examples of man’s baser nature. The “church”, if it were a man, should’ve been jailed long ago.

Even now, despite reflecting changing philosophical landscapes and societal contexts, the “church” is nothing more than a reflection of the men running it. Greed and utter avarice consumes them, and it consumes its members like a fat mopologist consumes a Crown pastrami burger drenched in fry sauce - don’t forget the Dr. Pepper cuz you down with the Crown in those circles.

- Doc