Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud

[Imwashingmypirate]

I do find myself wondering why he would die for a lie.

If I lied and was going to be killed, I'm pretty sure I'd admit to lying.

At what point did Joseph Smith realize he was going to be killed? Wasn't it not until the mob was already storming Carthage Jail? I do not recall that his jailors or anyone else in the scenario from the time he fled to Montrose, Iowa until the time he jumped out the window and exclaimed he was a dead man either offered him the chance to live if he would recant all the Mormon B.S. or that they were calling him out to his face for having told the Mormon B.S. Rather, it was for Joseph Smith's breaking the marital laws and using his position as mayor of Nauvoo to have the Expositor destroyed. I don't see how a confession that the Mormon B.S. was all lies would have saved his life.

I was taught that he was martyred.

[Dr. Shades]

I was taught that he was martyred.

We were all taught that, but it isn't true. He was killed all right, but it was for his actions, not his beliefs.

[Shulem]

The most probable scenario, in my humble opinion, is that Joseph Smith deceived himself into believing he was actually doing what he claimed he was doing.

Did he deceive himself into believing that he was visited by the Angel Moroni and that he dug up the golden plates?

The possibility of a schizophrenic mind and the use of entheogenic plants makes that entirely possible.

Think about it.

[Shulem]

I was taught that he was martyred.

We were all taught that, but it isn't true. He was killed all right, but it was for his actions, not his beliefs.

Smith believed he was above the law. He was murdered for both his beliefs and his actions.

[Chap]

Smith believed he was above the law. He was murdered for both his beliefs and his actions.

Cleverly put. In some sense, his acting as if he was above the law stemmed from his claims to authority as the prophet of a new dispensation. Of course we have no way of knowing whether he actually believed those claims himself, as opposed to finding them a really great way to live without working, receive adoration from crowds of devoted followers, justify whatever he felt like doing, and get access to the bodies of numerous young women.

But it was the illegal nature of the things he did (which would have been illegal if an atheist mayor of Nauvoo had done them) rather than what he may or may not have believed that got him killed. I think the word 'martyr' (from the Greek word for 'witness') is best reserved for its usual sense, in which it refers to people who are killed because they refuse to give up their religious beliefs. I don't think that can apply to Smith in the instance that we are discussing.

[Shulem]

Smith believed he was above the law. He was murdered for both his beliefs and his actions.

Cleverly put. In some sense, his acting as if he was above the law stemmed from his claims to authority as the prophet of a new dispensation. Of course we have no way of knowing whether he actually believed those claims himself, as opposed to finding them a really great way to live without working, receive adoration from crowds of devoted followers, justify whatever he felt like doing, and get access to the bodies of numerous young women.

Joseph Smith absolutely believed that his polygamy was above the law and was subject to the laws of heaven in which he was commissioned by God to practice in spite of earth and hell. Of this we can be sure because the testimony is explicit in telling us exactly what was on Joseph's mind. See here, main points in connecting the dots to this conclusion given in D&C 132:

• I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines.
• Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
• For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
• And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
• Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them.
• Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord,
• This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
• Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
• I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

So, we learn that Joseph Smith absolutely believed the commandment for him to enter into plural marriage was ordained of God and was a commandment that superseded the law of the land. His wife Emma was threatened with death and damnation if she refused to accept those things.

It was a terrible thing.

[Chap]

Cleverly put. In some sense, his acting as if he was above the law stemmed from his claims to authority as the prophet of a new dispensation. Of course we have no way of knowing whether he actually believed those claims himself, as opposed to finding them a really great way to live without working, receive adoration from crowds of devoted followers, justify whatever he felt like doing, and get access to the bodies of numerous young women.

Joseph Smith absolutely believed that his polygamy was above the law and was subject to the laws of heaven in which he was commissioned by God to practice in spite of earth and hell. Of this we can be sure because the testimony is explicit in telling us exactly what was on Joseph's mind. See here, main points in connecting the dots to this conclusion given in D&C 132:

[...]

So, we learn that Joseph Smith absolutely believed the commandment for him to enter into plural marriage was ordained of God and was a commandment that superseded the law of the land. His wife Emma was threatened with death and damnation if she refused to accept those things.

It was a terrible thing.

Well, what we can be sure of (from the texts by Smith that you quote) was that Smith wanted people to believe that his fulfilment of his intense wish to have sex with lots of young women practice of plural marriage was just him following a commandment from a deity.

Those texts do not, however, prove that he actually believed that he had received such a commandment from a deity. It is quite possible that he just made it all up in response to a commandment he received from inside his pants.

[Physics Guy]

Moroni: Here, Smith, take these plates. You won't use them for anything, and you can only show them to a few unconvincing witnesses before I take them away forever again, but you have to make a big point of claiming to have had them for a while.

Smith: Why?

Moroni: See, in the distant future there are going to be a few people who might fail to believe you're a fully genuine prophet, because they might find it more convenient to call you a good man who was a little confused. With your claim to golden plates on the record, though, that option will be off the table for them.

Smith: So they'll have no middle ground between calling me a prophet and calling me a liar?

Moroni: Exactly, and just because of these plates! That's why I lugged them all over the continent, and my forebears made and protected them through the centuries: all to make a sharper dilemma about your personal character for some wavering believers in the future.

Smith: Uh, Mr Moroni, sir ... I'm a serial sexual predator with a thing for underage girls. If the Lord wants it clear that I was not a good man, I've got that covered already. You didn't need to do all that with the plates.

Moroni: Oh. Well, you can also just drop the plates in a sack and swing it around as a weapon. On my way here from Mexico, back in the day, I took out a headless Lamanite, a rabid curelom, and more armadillos than I care to recall. Didn't bother to scratch it into the plates as a postscript, but it was epic. Ka-wham! You should practice a bit before you go today.

[Shulem]

Well, what we can be sure of (from the texts by Smith that you quote) was that Smith wanted people to believe that his fulfilment of his intense wish to have sex with lots of young women practice of plural marriage was just him following a commandment from a deity.

Those texts do not, however, prove that he actually believed that he had received such a commandment from a deity. It is quite possible that he just made it all up in response to a commandment he received from inside his pants.

It's an official statement from the mouth of the horse, himself. We know exactly what was on his mind because he spoke and section 132 reveals his true nature, "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he."

The text proves that Smith *claimed* to receive commandments. The text also proves that Smith *believed* in a deity. The formation of that text along with other published statements leads me to believe he believed he was commanded of God. I'm sure of it and that works for me. You get to do think what you want and that's fine with me.

PS. Do you think Joseph had big dick or just average or, small?

[Chap]

The text proves that Smith *claimed* to receive commandments. The text also proves that Smith *believed* in a deity. The formation of that text along with other published statements leads me to believe he believed he was commanded of God.

You have a touching faith in Smith's veracity.