Page 1 of 3
Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:22 am
by drumdude
“DCP” wrote: Many years ago, a friend who knew something about the story of the early Restoration but didn’t believe in it asked me why the plates were necessary if, as some sources seem to suggest, they weren’t required to be right at hand while Joseph Smith was dictating. I responded then, and I still believe, that they were necessary in order to force the choice between “sincere visionary” and “deceitful fraud.” I told him that they were an “absolutely indigestible lump in the throats of people like yourself,” who wish to be friendly and sympathetic but who won’t believe. Prophet or fraud. The middle ground, if any exists at all, is very, very limited.
This argument completely falls apart if you know the history of Automatic Writing.
History is easy to miswrite if you leave out the facts.
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:31 am
by huckelberry
Drumdude,
I wonder if you could clarify your thought? I do not know what argument you see as falling apart. I am also unsure how automatic writing enters the relationship.
I thought perhaps DCP is only making the simple observation that if the plates were not what Joseph claimed them to be Joseph would know that.
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:14 am
by drumdude
Drumdude,
I wonder if you could clarify your thought? I do not know what argument you see as falling apart. I am also unsure how automatic writing enters the relationship.
I thought perhaps DCP is only making the simple observation that if the plates were not what Joseph claimed them to be Joseph would know that.
The most probable scenario, in my humble opinion, is that Joseph Smith deceived himself into believing he was actually doing what he claimed he was doing.
You see this all the time when people lie, cheat, and steal. It’s human nature to be able to convince oneself that they’re not actually doing anything wrong. Joseph may very well have been astounded at how easily he was able to write the Book of Mormon, just as there is no easy explanation for how other people were able to automatically write well beyond their means.
So the idea that Joseph must have either been a conscious liar or a true prophet is simply false. It’s very easy to imagine a scenario where he really believed he was doing God’s will. Even if he was fabricating the plates himself.
DCP, of all people, should know this full well. He made a career out of lying and convincing himself that it was for the greater good.
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:39 am
by Dr. Shades
drumdude wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:14 am
The most probable scenario, in my humble opinion, is that Joseph Smith deceived himself into believing he was actually doing what he claimed he was doing.
Did he deceive himself into believing that he was visited by the Angel Moroni and that he dug up the golden plates?
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:27 pm
by IWMP
drumdude wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:22 am
“DCP” wrote: Many years ago, a friend who knew something about the story of the early Restoration but didn’t believe in it asked me why the plates were necessary if, as some sources seem to suggest, they weren’t required to be right at hand while Joseph Smith was dictating. I responded then, and I still believe, that they were necessary in order to force the choice between “sincere visionary” and “deceitful fraud.” I told him that they were an “absolutely indigestible lump in the throats of people like yourself,” who wish to be friendly and sympathetic but who won’t believe. Prophet or fraud. The middle ground, if any exists at all, is very, very limited.
This argument completely falls apart if you know the history of Automatic Writing.
History is easy to miswrite if you leave out the facts.
The argument would make sense if the plates were visible to people. But they aren't.
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:31 pm
by IWMP
drumdude wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:14 am
Drumdude,
I wonder if you could clarify your thought? I do not know what argument you see as falling apart. I am also unsure how automatic writing enters the relationship.
I thought perhaps DCP is only making the simple observation that if the plates were not what Joseph claimed them to be Joseph would know that.
The most probable scenario, in my humble opinion, is that Joseph Smith deceived himself into believing he was actually doing what he claimed he was doing.
You see this all the time when people lie, cheat, and steal. It’s human nature to be able to convince oneself that they’re not actually doing anything wrong. Joseph may very well have been astounded at how easily he was able to write the Book of Mormon, just as there is no easy explanation for how other people were able to automatically write well beyond their means.
So the idea that Joseph must have either been a conscious liar or a true prophet is simply false. It’s very easy to imagine a scenario where he really believed he was doing God’s will. Even if he was fabricating the plates himself.
DCP, of all people, should know this full well. He made a career out of lying and convincing himself that it was for the greater good.
I do find myself wondering why he would die for a lie.
If I lied and was going to be killed, I'm pretty sure I'd admit to lying.
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:04 pm
by drumdude
Dr. Shades wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 11:39 am
drumdude wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:14 am
The most probable scenario, in my humble opinion, is that Joseph Smith deceived himself into believing he was actually doing what he claimed he was doing.
Did he deceive himself into believing that he was visited by the Angel Moroni and that he dug up the golden plates?
Con artists very often begin believing their own lies. He morphed from telling stories to believing them. I would bet money that over time the stories he would tell became as real to him as the real world around him.
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 4:06 pm
by Nimrod
Imwashingmypirate wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:31 pm
drumdude wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:14 am
The most probable scenario, in my humble opinion, is that Joseph Smith deceived himself into believing he was actually doing what he claimed he was doing.
You see this all the time when people lie, cheat, and steal. It’s human nature to be able to convince oneself that they’re not actually doing anything wrong. Joseph may very well have been astounded at how easily he was able to write the Book of Mormon, just as there is no easy explanation for how other people were able to automatically write well beyond their means.
So the idea that Joseph must have either been a conscious liar or a true prophet is simply false. It’s very easy to imagine a scenario where he really believed he was doing God’s will. Even if he was fabricating the plates himself.
DCP, of all people, should know this full well. He made a career out of lying and convincing himself that it was for the greater good.
I do find myself wondering why he would die for a lie.
If I lied and was going to be killed, I'm pretty sure I'd admit to lying.
At what point did Joseph Smith realize he was going to be killed? Wasn't it not until the mob was already storming Carthage Jail? I do not recall that his jailors or anyone else in the scenario from the time he fled to Montrose, Iowa until the time he jumped out the window and exclaimed he was a dead man either offered him the chance to live if he would recant all the Mormon B.S. or that they were calling him out to his face for having told the Mormon B.S. Rather, it was for Joseph Smith's breaking the marital laws and using his position as mayor of Nauvoo to have the Expositor destroyed. I don't see how a confession that the Mormon B.S. was all lies would have saved his life.
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 4:49 pm
by huckelberry
drumdude wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:14 am
Drumdude,
I wonder if you could clarify your thought? I do not know what argument you see as falling apart. I am also unsure how automatic writing enters the relationship.
I thought perhaps DCP is only making the simple observation that if the plates were not what Joseph claimed them to be Joseph would know that.
The most probable scenario, in my humble opinion, is that Joseph Smith deceived himself into believing he was actually doing what he claimed he was doing.
You see this all the time when people lie, cheat, and steal. It’s human nature to be able to convince oneself that they’re not actually doing anything wrong. Joseph may very well have been astounded at how easily he was able to write the Book of Mormon, just as there is no easy explanation for how other people were able to automatically write well beyond their means.
So the idea that Joseph must have either been a conscious liar or a true prophet is simply false. It’s very easy to imagine a scenario where he really believed he was doing God’s will. Even if he was fabricating the plates himself.
DCP, of all people, should know this full well. He made a career out of lying and convincing himself that it was for the greater good.
Drumdude, I can see your point. I think there could be a variety of ways belief desire theater could have worked together. The apologetic view is that such is confusing, it is simpler to say Joseph seemed to fully believe so the plates should be real. If there were not significant reasons to doubt the historical reality of the Book of Mormon that view would hold more weight I think.
Re: Another false dilemma from DCP: Prophet or Fraud
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:12 pm
by Nimrod
drumdude wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:22 am
“DCP” wrote: Many years ago, a friend who knew something about the story of the early Restoration but didn’t believe in it asked me why the plates were necessary if, as some sources seem to suggest, they weren’t required to be right at hand while Joseph Smith was dictating. I responded then, and I still believe, that they were necessary in order to force the choice between “sincere visionary” and “deceitful fraud.” I told him that they were an “absolutely indigestible lump in the throats of people like yourself,” who wish to be friendly and sympathetic but who won’t believe. Prophet or fraud. The middle ground, if any exists at all, is very, very limited.
This argument completely falls apart if you know the history of Automatic Writing.
History is easy to miswrite if you leave out the facts.
False dilemma or not, I think Joseph Smith was a fraud.