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On being alone
Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:35 pm
by huckelberry
Billy Shears posted this with temple content so the post went to telestial. I found myself having a few thoughts about his non-temple observations so thought to copy them here. Perhaps they might catch a bit more notice and converstion here.
Billy Shears wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:13 pm
. . . because this morning I read a great story in
The New York Times entitled,
An Atheist Chaplain and a Death Row Inmate’s Final Hours. The gist of the story is that Phillip Hancock killed two people in 2001 (he claims it was self defense), and after the process played out, he was scheduled to be executed on November 30, 2022. Hancock entered prison as a Christian, but had “an appetite for reading, learning and debate that he shared with many imprisoned believers. Along the way, he became an atheist.” Christian missionaries often visited the prison trying to save him, and he intensely read the Bible in order to debate them. “He said he took care, though, to argue with empathy. He did not want to destroy what he called a 'delusion' that these missionaries might need on their own deathbeds.”
He eventually became very good friends with the atheist minister Devin Moss, who himself was raised a Christian and then ultimately rejected it.
About four minutes before the lethal injection was administered, Moss gave Hancock a short atheist prayer. He said, "We call the spirit of humanity into this space. Let love fill our hearts. We ask that in this transition into peaceful oblivion that Phil feels that love, and although this is his journey that he is not alone. We invoke the power of peace, strength, grace and surrender. Amen."
He then gave his convicted friends his final words: “In the beginning of this, when I asked what you really wanted out of a spiritual care adviser, it was Philippians chapter 4,
show me something real. Show me something true. What is real is that you are loved. What is true is you are not alone.”
I found myself thinking about how people can feel alone at times and that can involve a fear aspect. Feeling alone can sap a person’s strength and courage. I have noticed that in a variety of ways seeing how we are not alone helps restore courage and more balanced emotions. One might expect an observation like, so pray to God to connect. This is not actually what I was thinking of first. I was thinking of the way in which we are all connected to other people for our very existence. All the people, family, community, and history which contribute to what you are can be a source of strength so one should remember. I think the world around us provides layers of support and so on the soil upon which we live we are not alone. With some amusement I find myself thinking of the learning how to live done by creatures, distant ancestors, before humans. Mammals learned to play and to learn from play long before there were humans but we have received those learning patterns from that broad and deep animal community.
As a believer in God, I think those things are part of God’s creation and creation of us. In a way they carry an image of God which is all about us. Well I understand that a person might see that community around us as all there really is of God, no extra transcend layer. It could be argued that these awarenesses are what cause people to project to an idea of God in order to assemble all these contributors to what we are into one memorable idea.
I remain more inclined to believe in a source for this vast living net of community on earth.
Re: on being alone
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:24 pm
by drumdude
The idea of an atheist minister going around death row just seems silly to me, even as an atheist.
Re: on being alone
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2024 5:30 pm
by Chap
drumdude wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:24 pm
The idea of an atheist minister going around death row just seems silly to me, even as an atheist.
Really? As an atheist myself, if I imagine the possibility of facing judicially inflicted death in prison, and assuming I had the right to be accompanied by somebody other than a close relation or spouse, I would certainly go for someone who would help me keep calm and collected but without bothering me with statements or suggestions based on the teachings of a religion in which I did not believe.
You, of course, are welcome to go it alone if you choose. See you on Death Row - which is, of course, where we all are already, although most of us keep forgetting it.
Re: on being alone
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2024 5:50 pm
by drumdude
Chap wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 5:30 pm
drumdude wrote: ↑Fri Feb 02, 2024 3:24 pm
The idea of an atheist minister going around death row just seems silly to me, even as an atheist.
Really? As an atheist myself, if I imagine the possibility of facing judicially inflicted death in prison, and assuming I had the right to be accompanied by somebody other than a close relation or spouse, I would certainly go for someone who would help me keep calm and collected but without bothering me with statements or suggestions based on the teachings of a religion in which I did not believe.
You, of course, are welcome to go it alone if you choose. See you on Death Row - which is, of course, where we all are already, although most of us keep forgetting it.
Good points.
Re: On being alone
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:19 pm
by msnobody
huckelberry wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:35 pm
Billy Shears posted this with temple content so the post went to telestial. I found myself having a few thoughts about his non-temple observations so thought to copy them here. Perhaps they might catch a bit more notice and converstion here.
Billy Shears wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:13 pm
. . . because this morning I read a great story in
The New York Times entitled,
An Atheist Chaplain and a Death Row Inmate’s Final Hours. The gist of the story is that Phillip Hancock killed two people in 2001 (he claims it was self defense), and after the process played out, he was scheduled to be executed on November 30, 2022. Hancock entered prison as a Christian, but had “an appetite for reading, learning and debate that he shared with many imprisoned believers. Along the way, he became an atheist.” Christian missionaries often visited the prison trying to save him, and he intensely read the Bible in order to debate them. “He said he took care, though, to argue with empathy. He did not want to destroy what he called a 'delusion' that these missionaries might need on their own deathbeds.”
He eventually became very good friends with the atheist minister Devin Moss, who himself was raised a Christian and then ultimately rejected it.
About four minutes before the lethal injection was administered, Moss gave Hancock a short atheist prayer. He said, "We call the spirit of humanity into this space. Let love fill our hearts. We ask that in this transition into peaceful oblivion that Phil feels that love, and although this is his journey that he is not alone. We invoke the power of peace, strength, grace and surrender. Amen."
He then gave his convicted friends his final words: “In the beginning of this, when I asked what you really wanted out of a spiritual care adviser, it was Philippians chapter 4,
show me something real. Show me something true. What is real is that you are loved. What is true is you are not alone.”
I found myself thinking about how people can feel alone at times and that can involve a fear aspect. Feeling alone can sap a person’s strength and courage. I have noticed that in a variety of ways seeing how we are not alone helps restore courage and more balanced emotions. One might expect an observation like, so pray to God to connect. This is not actually what I was thinking of first. I was thinking of the way in which we are all connected to other people for our very existence. All the people, family, community, and history which contribute to what you are can be a source of strength so one should remember. I think the world around us provides layers of support and so on the soil upon which we live we are not alone. With some amusement I find myself thinking of the learning how to live done by creatures, distant ancestors, before humans. Mammals learned to play and to learn from play long before there were humans but we have received those learning patterns from that broad and deep animal community.
As a believer in God, I think those things are part of God’s creation and creation of us. In a way they carry an image of God which is all about us. Well I understand that a person might see that community around us as all there really is of God, no extra transcend layer. It could be argued that these awarenesses are what cause people to project to an idea of God in order to assemble all these contributors to what we are into one memorable idea.
I remain more inclined to believe in a source for this vast living net of community on earth.
Although polluted by sin, that is the imago dei in all of us.
Re: On being alone
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:34 pm
by Marcus
msnobody wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:19 pm
Although polluted by sin, that is the imago dei in all of us.
I'm glad it works for you, and while it may be the image in you, it is NOT what "all of us" consider to be the image in all of us.
Re: On being alone
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:09 pm
by msnobody
Marcus wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:34 pm
msnobody wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:19 pm
Although polluted by sin, that is the imago dei in all of us.
I'm glad it works for you, and while it may be the image in you, it is NOT what "all of us" consider to be the image in all of us.
I see it in you guys all the time, but I respect that you may or may not see it in yourself/yourselves.
Re: On being alone
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:14 pm
by msnobody
What do you suppose would cause Mr. Hancock (we have to assume based on the atheist chaplain’s prayer) to hope for oblivion upon death?
Re: On being alone
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 1:54 am
by Marcus
msnobody wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:09 pm
Marcus wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:34 pm
I'm glad it works for you, and while it may be the image in you, it is NOT what "all of us" consider to be the image in all of us.
I see it in you guys all the time, but I respect that you may or may not see it in yourself/yourselves.
I disagree. in my opinion, your statement here is not showing respect for others any more than your first one was.
Re: On being alone
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:04 am
by drumdude
msnobody wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:14 pm
What do you suppose would cause Mr. Hancock (we have to assume based on the atheist chaplain’s prayer) to hope for oblivion upon death?
To many atheists, the idea of not existing after death is just as peaceful as not existing before birth.
You and I were in oblivion for billions of years. It caused none of us one bit of inconvenience or pain. It’s a natural thing to want the end to dovetail nicely into that beginning.