Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

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Chap
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by Chap »

BeNotDeceived wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:34 pm
How anyone would believe ... just boggles the mind.
The key to all this nonsense taking on a permanent existence is that it lasted long enough to be passed on to the children of the first believers.

A religion taught to you by your parents is a much more permanent feature of the mind than a religion you have adopted as an adult. And the chances of your ever happening to say "Hey! After all, I don't think this stuff makes sense ...!" are much, much less. What seems ridiculous or incredible to the outsider is utterly normal to the child brought up in the faith.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Rick Grunder wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 2:08 am
In the Meridian Magazine article, it states (and then reasons):
One contemporary describes him as “an industrious, hard-working farmer, shrewd in his business calculations.” But shrewdness in business calculations seems quite incompatible with being delusional, irrational, and prone to hallucination.
Now here is that snipped quote in its original source text:
Until he had arrived at the age of thirty-five years, he was an industrious, hard-working farmer, shrewd in his business calculations, frugal in his habits, and what was termed a prosperous man in the world.
. . . . .
. . . until the summer of 1828. Shortly previous to this he had become somewhat religiously awakened and began the study of the Bible. He also became quite skeptical, as well as superstitious, believing in miracles, wonderful dreams, spiritual interposition, special providences, &c. He pursued the study of the Bible with great tenacity, committing to memory whole books, and at the time of the Mormon incubation, could quote chapter and verse with surprising correctness. When Joe Smith first [revealed] to him the wonders of him new religion, it found a fertile soil in Martin's brain, where it took root, and he became an incurable monomaniac in religious matters. Yet only in this was Martin deemed insane; on other subjects he exhibited all of his former clearness of brain; he could drive a good bargain, and manage his farming matters, as well as ever, only when he had his "spells" on.
-- Palmyra Courier for May 24, 1872. http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/ny/miscNYS5.htm

My point here is not to depend on this original source text for historical accuracy, but to show that the writer in Meridian completely reverses the irenic logic of the very witness being quoted.
Thanks, Rick, for setting the record straight and, very nicely, showing how the Mopologists sidestep the truth when presenting history to believers.

For any lurkers, Rick is probably, I dunno, one of the top 5 Mormon scholars on the planet, and we're very blessed to have him show up once in a while to share his expertise with us.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Philo Sofee
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by Philo Sofee »

BeNotDeceived wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:34 pm
How anyone would believe that a God or deity that created the heavens and the earth would have some con-man from upstate New York 'restore' Christ's 'church' (when Christ never organized a church) by having him bury his face in a tophat and looking at a rock (that he used to scam people claiming he could see buried treasure in the bowels of the earth) to tell a story about the ancient inhabitants of America, when the guy was already a fictitious storyteller according to his own mother... just boggles the mind. :lol:
It also shows the pure power and danger of brainwashing. If someone intelligent believed, he couldn't possibly be brainwashed could he? That's DCP's logic. Millions who still believe refute him.
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Dr. Shades
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by Dr. Shades »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:39 am
Millions who still believe refute him.
Millions who still believe in what? Mormonism? If so, don't they reinforce him, not refute him?
"It’s ironic that the Church that people claim to be true, puts so much effort into hiding truths."
--I Have Questions, 01-25-2024
Marcus
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by Marcus »

Rick Grunder wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 2:08 am
In the Meridian Magazine article, it states (and then reasons):
One contemporary describes him as “an industrious, hard-working farmer, shrewd in his business calculations.” But shrewdness in business calculations seems quite incompatible with being delusional, irrational, and prone to hallucination.
Now here is that snipped quote in its original source text:
Until he had arrived at the age of thirty-five years, he was an industrious, hard-working farmer, shrewd in his business calculations, frugal in his habits, and what was termed a prosperous man in the world.
. . . . .
. . . until the summer of 1828. Shortly previous to this he had become somewhat religiously awakened and began the study of the Bible. He also became quite skeptical, as well as superstitious, believing in miracles, wonderful dreams, spiritual interposition, special providences, &c. He pursued the study of the Bible with great tenacity, committing to memory whole books, and at the time of the Mormon incubation, could quote chapter and verse with surprising correctness. When Joe Smith first [revealed] to him the wonders of him new religion, it found a fertile soil in Martin's brain, where it took root, and he became an incurable monomaniac in religious matters. Yet only in this was Martin deemed insane; on other subjects he exhibited all of his former clearness of brain; he could drive a good bargain, and manage his farming matters, as well as ever, only when he had his "spells" on.
-- Palmyra Courier for May 24, 1872. http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/ny/miscNYS5.htm

My point here is not to depend on this original source text for historical accuracy, but to show that the writer in Meridian completely reverses the irenic logic of the very witness being quoted.
Thank you for this, Rick. You reinforce the rule that mopologists' footnotes and references must ALWAYS be checked.

The sheer amount of academic dishonesty lds researchers put forward is staggering.
BeNotDeceived
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

The sheer amount of academic dishonesty LDS researchers put forward is staggering.
Even worse is from the men atop the 'church' who call themselves 'PSR's who are idolized and worshipped by the membership as honest and trustworthy 'men of God' being engaged in the same thing. :x
BeNotDeceived
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Chap wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 10:26 pm
BeNotDeceived wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:34 pm
How anyone would believe ... just boggles the mind.
The key to all this nonsense taking on a permanent existence is that it lasted long enough to be passed on to the children of the first believers.

A religion taught to you by your parents is a much more permanent feature of the mind than a religion you have adopted as an adult. And the chances of your ever happening to say "Hey! After all, I don't think this stuff makes sense ...!" are much, much less. What seems ridiculous or incredible to the outsider is utterly normal to the child brought up in the faith.
Well said.
hauslern
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by hauslern »

John Gilbert was responsible for setting the type for the Book of Mormon. He said, "Martin did you see these plates with your naked eyes?" Harris said, "No i saw them with a spiritual eye" and later to John A Clark, "I saw them with the eye of faith."

Bushman cited in Patheos:

"Martin Harris was among the defectors in 1837 and 1838; he turned on Joseph Smith for the same reasons as Burnett—the failed bank and a loss of confidence in Joseph Smith. But strangely, his statement about seeing the plates in a vision was not meant to undermine the Book of Mormon. Burnett also heard Harris say that “he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true.” Harris was actually warning his fellow apostates they would suffer if in rejecting Smith they relinquished faith in the book. Harris’s visionary description of the plates was not intended to undermine their reality. He spoke of not seeing the plates “with his natural eyes only in vision,” because he believed that was the only way a mortal could view heavenly things. Pomeroy Tucker, the Palmyra printer who later wrote a book on Mormonism, remembered Harris speaking “a good deal of his characteristic jargon about ‘seeing with the spiritual eye.’

What does one make of this? "spiritual eyes"
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by yellowstone123 »

But it appears that his wife who knew him best concluded he was easily fooled, and his finances needed to be watched closely.
“One of the important things for anybody in power is to distinguish between what you have the right to do and what is right to do." Potter Stewart, associate justice of the Supreme Court - 1958 to 1981.
Chap
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Re: Harris Reputation - Who do you believe?

Post by Chap »

yellowstone123 wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2024 3:55 pm
But it appears that his wife who knew him best concluded he was easily fooled, and his finances needed to be watched closely.
As the South Park version repeatedly put it:

"Joseph Smith was called a prophet - (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!)"

But when it came to Mrs. Harris's (shall we say) skeptical attitude to the prophet of the new religion on which her husband was increasingly sold, the refrain changed to ...

"smart smart smart smart smart!"
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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