Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?

[Shulem]

I'd love to take a look--do you have a page link?

Okay, I've clocked an hour in so far and haven't had any more problems with Dan's presentation after the first 25 minutes with reference to the 3 day journey and what constitutes the whole journey through the wilderness from the outskirts of Jerusalem to wadi Tayyib al-Ism.

I get the impression where Dan is taking this little party! The distance allowed by apologists is much, much, much farther to travel through the elevations and canyons then just walking a straight line. The apologist's jaws will hit the floor in knowing the Long and Winding Road bit them in the ass. I'm glad this is being brought up. It kills any hope that Lehi and his little band could have arrived at their precious river wadi mud pit in just three days.

Way do go, Vogel.

Please continue in the celestial thread on page 47 beginning here!

Ok, time to get back to Dan's video.

[Marcus]

I'd love to take a look--do you have a page link?

Well, actually several.

Look, I understand Dan's arguments about definitions regarding wilderness and boundary considering I've given it a great deal of thought myself. But I tend to agree with the apologists about the distance between Jerusalem and the boundary leading up to the tip of the Red Sea (Aqaba) being a separate leg of the journey and the days given for that are wholly missing from the text. I interpret the journey leading from Aqaba down to Laman's river as the three days penciled into the script.

So, here I references a few modified posts from running material in the celestial thread:

But first:

I plead ignorant when it comes to church apologetics referencing Lehi’s Trail and generally avoid it. Their presentations are deceptive and misleading and they build their case and view everything through a lens that supports the conclusion the Church is true no matter what. I do not do that. I look at the evidence and view the facts as they are but knowing the Book of Mormon is only a faith promoting story that has no real proof or evidence whatsoever.

Behold:

• Google Earth: Wadi Tayyib Al Ism at 400 ft scale
• Google Earth: Middle East region at 100 mile scale

Here is the route at Book of Mormon Central which shows the total distance between Jerusalem and Tayyib al-Ism. The distance from Jerusalem to the northern tip of the Red Sea (Gulf of Aqaba) is about 200 miles and the final leg leading to Tayyib al-Ism is an additional 74 miles. Thus, the total distance from Jerusalem to Lehi’s camp situated at river Laman is a whopping 274 miles ONE WAY!

The story contains several red flags!

You will recall the first journey involved Lehi and his family making their way southward to the borders of the Red Sea until they reached the river Laman where they set up their first permanent camp. But then Lehi sent his sons back twice on two separate missions:

1. Acquire the brass plates from Laban
2. Pick up and bring back Ishmael and his family

Now, please read page 50

And with that said, I differ with Vogel's interpretation of the text. But maybe I'm wrong; I f-ing doubt it.

Yes, SIR!! I have read enough of your analysis to trust your comments and recommendations -- page 50 here I come (once again, because I have read it before but I know it takes more to learn something than just one reading)!!

[Marcus]

I'd love to take a look--do you have a page link?

Okay, I've clocked an hour in so far and haven't had any more problems with Dan's presentation after the first 25 minutes with reference to the 3 day journey and what constitutes the whole journey through the wilderness from the outskirts of Jerusalem to wadi Tayyib al-Ism.

I get the impression where Dan is taking this little party! The distance allowed by apologists is much, much, much farther to travel through the elevations and canyons then just walking a straight line. The apologist's jaws will hit the floor in knowing the Long and Winding Road bit them in the ass. I'm glad this is being brought up. It kills any hope that Lehi and his little band could have arrived at their precious river wadi mud pit in just three days.

Way do go, Vogel.

Please continue in the celestial thread on page 47 beginning here!

Ok, time to get back to Dan's video.

Thank you again for your assessment, I will add p. 47 and on to my reading.

What I appreciate most from my first time through Dan's video is his meticulous treatment of footnotes and how mopologists misuse them. As usual.

(Oh and of course, his mild snark. When he calmly referred to Jeff in an aside as an apologist "well known for his tortured interpretations and apologetic inventions", he had me on the floor! ) Well done, Dan.

[Shulem]

Yes, SIR!! I have read enough of your analysis to trust your comments and recommendations -- page 50 here I come (once again, because I have read it before but I know it takes more to learn something than just one reading)!!

And pay close attention to page 49 where I come to full agreement with Vogel about the river Laman not being a wadi.

Did you know that according to Joseph Smith, there were rivers in Arabia. See here:

https://storage.googleapis.com/raremaps ... /93085.jpg

(Oh and of course, his mild snark. When he calmly referred to Jeff in an aside as an apologist "well known for his tortured interpretations and apologetic inventions", he had me on the floor! Well done, Dan.

Hey, Jeff Linsday, what's the king's name in Facsimile No. 3?

[dan vogel]

Yes, SIR!! I have read enough of your analysis to trust your comments and recommendations -- page 50 here I come (once again, because I have read it before but I know it takes more to learn something than just one reading)!!

And pay close attention to page 49 where I come to full agreement with Vogel about the river Laman not being a wadi.

Did you know that according to Joseph Smith, there were rivers in Arabia. See here:

https://storage.googleapis.com/raremaps ... /93085.jpg

I'll be interested to hear what you think about the ending.

[Shulem]

Did you know that according to Joseph Smith, there were rivers in Arabia. See here:

https://storage.googleapis.com/raremaps ... /93085.jpg

I'll be interested to hear what you think about the ending.

When it comes to the possibility of Joseph Smith seeing any given map available in his day, we must offer a generous allowance for the possibility. There is really no way of saying that it's impossible for him to have viewed any given particular map unless it can be proven that such a map was simply not available to persons of his time and locale.

Dan, the maps you refer to are possible candidates and your theory is entirely valid from a certain point of view -- it's plausible and must be taken into consideration. For me, however, it seems a longshot. Did Smith view the colored shorelines as the "borders" mentioned in the script? It's possible! Is the eastern strip of the gulf what Smith construed as a river? It's possible, but to me it seems like a longshot. I remain open to the possibility.

In consideration of the possibility that Smith could have viewed any map in formulating his ideas of what the terrain and landscape was in ancient times, we should consider other maps too. I am in agreement with the idea that Smith did in fact look at maps. Absolutely!

Look here, zoom in for Smith's imaginary river:

• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... da-vignola
• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... ier-de-fer
• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... -tes-senex

The bottom line is the apologists are screwed in trying to find an actual river that fits Nephi's description because there is none. That river never existed and there is no king's name in Facsimile No. 3. Both are Smith's personal fantasies!! Both ideas are untrue.

I bear my personal testimony that I know the Book of Mormon is pure fiction.

Amen.

[Shulem]

Here is one of the maps Vogel displays in his presentation to show where Lehi may have ventured down into the borders of the Red Sea where the green bordering of the eastern upper tip of the gulf is the place in question.

Zoom in on the map here
Listen to Dan's podcast here

I think it's a real longshot to make this work, but it's possible. However, it seems a lot easier to just go around the bay (river?) rather than cross it. We know from the account in the story they were forced to cross the river Laman (1 Nephi 16:12). If I were inventing the story and looking at this map, I wouldn't have them crossing the gulf but would skirt around it as guided by the Liahona. So, I don't think it's the river Smith imagined. The story suggests they crossed the river because they had no choice because it was an enduring river of obvious great length.

[dan vogel]

Shulem,

Look here, zoom in for Smith's imaginary river:

• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... da-vignola
• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... ier-de-fer
• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... -tes-senex

All three maps are too early. The Gulf of Aqaba is missing because the cartographers on ships passed the Straits of Tiran thinking it was just a bay.

[dan vogel]

Here is one of the maps Vogel displays in his presentation to show where Lehi may have ventured down into the borders of the Red Sea where the green bordering of the eastern upper tip of the gulf is the place in question.

Zoom in on the map here
Listen to Dan's podcast here

I think it's a real longshot to make this work, but it's possible. However, it seems a lot easier to just go around the bay (river?) rather than cross it. We know from the account in the story they were forced to cross the river Laman (1 Nephi 16:12). If I were inventing the story and looking at this map, I wouldn't have them crossing the gulf but would skirt around it as guided by the Liahona. So, I don't think it's the river Smith imagined. The story suggests they crossed the river because they had no choice because it was an enduring river of obvious great length.

Lehi was camped near the mouth of the river, and it does seem to be long. Joseph Smith had them traveling in the borders near the seashore. They crossed the river to stay in the borders of the Red Sea. I'm not sure I would rule out this or any map based on what you would have them do if you had written the story.

[Shulem]

Shulem,

Look here, zoom in for Smith's imaginary river:

• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... da-vignola
• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... ier-de-fer
• https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... -tes-senex

All three maps are too early. The Gulf of Aqaba is missing because the cartographers on ships passed the Straits of Tiran thinking it was just a bay.

Too early is an expectation in hindsight from a modern viewpoint. There could have been prints of famous maps made available to the public. It's possible and cannot be ruled out. Smith could have perused any of those maps unless it can be shown a particular map could not have been available to people living in the region in which Smith lived. It leaves a door open.