Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?

[Shulem]

Here is one of the maps Vogel displays in his presentation to show where Lehi may have ventured down into the borders of the Red Sea where the green bordering of the eastern upper tip of the gulf is the place in question.

Lehi was camped near the mouth of the river, and it does seem to be long. Joseph Smith had them traveling in the borders near the seashore. They crossed the river to stay in the borders of the Red Sea. I'm not sure I would rule out this or any map based on what you would have them do if you had written the story.

Well, if I was sitting down with the prophet and looking at the above map, I'd tell him the green shading along the watery borders is part of the Red Sea and that all of the water down therein is salted.

Also, I would point out the labeling in the gulf itself which says, "ARABIAN GULF OR RED SEA." Note the letter "A" begins a little way south of the northern tip of the narrow channel but it's all salt water. I'd tell the prophet that all of it is gulf water of the Red Sea. Any fresh water leading to the gulf would originate outside the bounds of the green shading.

That's what I'd tell the prophet and he would believe me. I know he would.

[Shulem]

Lehi was camped near the mouth of the river, and it does seem to be long. Joseph Smith had them traveling in the borders near the seashore. They crossed the river to stay in the borders of the Red Sea.

And this is something the apologists cannot deal with because there is no river in Arabia that flows into the Red Sea. Dan, you and me got the apologists by the balls and I'm pulling on them really hard until they scream. I'm not showing any mercy. And neither should you. So keep up the good work. I love your podcasts!

Again, page 49 has the apologists by the balls.

*Screw you, Daniel C. Peterson!

You liar.

[Shulem]

maps are too early.

It's never too early, Dan. Who can say what Joseph was looking at? Prints of famous vintage maps? Classic maps admired by people of his times?

Brother Dan, I look forward to more of your material and would love to see your projection of Bountiful which Joseph may have envisioned.

Show. Me. That. Map.

Hey, look at this map, it looks like Bountiful to me!

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... IOgSzS25V8

[Shulem]

I'll be interested to hear what you think about the ending.

I'll be interested to hear what you think above the rest of Lehi's trek and especially concerning Bountiful and where Joseph Smith may have imagined it based on maps available to him. This thread takes a lot into consideration with regard to Bountiful and Nephi building a ship.

Are you going to cover the rest of the trek, Dan?

[dan vogel]

maps are too early.

It's never too early, Dan. Who can say what Joseph was looking at? Prints of famous vintage maps? Classic maps admired by people of his times?

Brother Dan, I look forward to more of your material and would love to see your projection of Bountiful which Joseph may have envisioned.

Show. Me. That. Map.

Hey, look at this map, it looks like Bountiful to me!

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail ... IOgSzS25V8

I said the maps were too early because they didn't even include the Gulf of Aqaba. The cartographers on ships passed the Straits of Tiran, and saw the Islands and didn't get closer, assuming it was a bay. So, how could Joseph Smith use a map that didn't have the fountain of the Red Sea?

[Shulem]

I said the maps were too early because they didn't even include the Gulf of Aqaba. The cartographers on ships passed the Straits of Tiran, and saw the Islands and didn't get closer, assuming it was a bay. So, how could Joseph Smith use a map that didn't have the fountain of the Red Sea?

It's reasonable to assume that Smith would have read the title to the map you featured in your podcast and understood the implications of what it suggests, namely, "A NEW MAP OF ARABIA Divided into ITS SEVERAL REGIONS and DISTRICTS." The borders of the regions and districts in question are shaded with the colors: red, yellow, and green. The area to include Acaba that is shaded in green is titled, "Arabia Petraea" which was a province that belonged to ancient Rome. It's also reasonable to assume that Smith would have interpreted the colored borders along waterline as salted sea water. The rivers on the map are black-lined and distinct in showing they are rivers and a close examination will show that several of the named rivers on the map are titled with an "R." to designate they are rivers (fresh waters).

The text in the Book of Mormon informs us how the river Laman "emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof." The mouth is a part of the Red Sea and is salted water mixing with fresh, the same as indicated in the map regarding the "MOUTHS OF THE NILE" which receive river water that empties into the Mediterranean. The main point being is the green shading along the waterline is indicative of sea water. There is no river indicated by an extensive black-line that leads into Acaba! If there is no black-line then there is no river and if there is no river there is no mouth! And if there is no mouth then there is no fountain in which "the waters of the river emptied into the  fountain of the Red Sea." It's not reasonable to assume that Smith would have interpreted salted gulf water as a river or a fountain!

FOUNT',

FOUNT'AIN, noun [Latin fons.]

1. A spring, or source of water; properly, a spring or issuing of water from the earth. This word accords in sense with well, in our mother tongue; but we now distinguish the, applying fountain to a natural spring of water, and well to an artificial pit of water, issuing from the interior of the earth.

2. A small basin of springing water.

3. A jet; a spouting of water; an artificial spring.

4. The head or source of a river.

5. Original; first principle or cause; the source of any thing.

[Moksha]

LDS apologists could well argue that the so-called "River Laman" was hidden when a significant chunk of Middle Earth plunged into the sea at the end of the First Age.

[Shulem]

LDS apologists could well argue that the so-called "River Laman" was hidden when a significant chunk of Middle Earth plunged into the sea at the end of the First Age.

I think the river Laman was a fantasy the same as the river in Lehi's dream of the Tree of Life. The Book of Mormon is total fantasy!

[Moksha]

I think the river Laman was a fantasy the same as the river in Lehi's dream of the Tree of Life. The Book of Mormon is total fantasy!

However, Joseph was never able to create working languages like Professor Tolkien, even if he was able to use the Delmarva Peninsula as a working model for the story.

[Shulem]

he was able to use the Delmarva Peninsula as a working model for the story.

Ah.

Delmarva is to New York like Arabia is to Israel -- proximity through mobility in a back and forth fluid-like zone. THAT is what Smith visualized!

I'm glad you get it, Moksha. Your eyes have been opened.