Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?

[dan vogel]

Premiering now!

In this video, I will examine the attempts by Mormon apologists to connect the Book of Mormon’s story of Lehi’s flight from Jerusalem to the Red Sea and subsequent journey through the Arabian Desert to real geographic locations, especially their claim that the Book of Mormon’s Valley of Lemuel has been found in Saudi Arabia. I will show how the apologists have manipulated both text and terrain to produce their evidence in support of Book of Mormon historicity. I will also show how Joseph Smith created his text by simply looking at a map and making inferences, some of which turned out to be incorrect.

https://youtu.be/ZDf9CMeytOI

[Marcus]

Listening now! Thanks for doing this topic.

[Shulem]

I look forward to digesting this and see what you got.

[drumdude]

You’re taking on one of the apologists’ favorite talking points. Can’t wait to hear what you have to say.

[Marcus]

Wow he tore that apart, but very dense and detailed so going to have to watch again. Maybe take notes!

Dan emphasizes, once again, that you have to check the footnotes of mopologists.

[Shulem]

Wow he tore that apart, but very dense and detailed so going to have to watch again. Maybe take notes!

Dan emphasizes, once again, that you have to check the footnotes of mopologists.

Okay, I've clocked 25 minutes so far and have some serious differences in interpreting the text, namely, the 3 days travel which leads from point A to point B.

I've covered this in some detail in my geography thread up in Celestial if you need me to refer to that or pull a little text down here.

I'm looking forward to the rest of Dan's video and perhaps need to review the first 25 minutes but I'm shaking my head wondering what the heck?

[Marcus]

My favorite ....'apologists are relying on a very tortured reading of the text....' that depends upon apologists deciding 'which Hebrew word Smith MISinterpreted...'

Lol.

[Marcus]

Wow he tore that apart, but very dense and detailed so going to have to watch again. Maybe take notes!

Dan emphasizes, once again, that you have to check the footnotes of mopologists.

Okay, I've clocked 25 minutes so far and have some serious differences in interpreting the text, namely, the 3 days travel which leads from point A to point B.

I've covered this in some detail in my geography thread up in Celestial if you need me to refer to that or pull a little text down here.

I'm looking forward to the rest of Dan's video and perhaps need to review the first 25 minutes but I'm shaking my head wondering what the heck?

I'd love to take a look--do you have a page link?

[Shulem]

I'd love to take a look--do you have a page link?

Well, actually several.

Look, I understand Dan's arguments about definitions regarding wilderness and boundary considering I've given it a great deal of thought myself. But I tend to agree with the apologists about the distance between Jerusalem and the boundary leading up to the tip of the Red Sea (Aqaba) being a separate leg of the journey and the days given for that are wholly missing from the text. I interpret the journey leading from Aqaba down to Laman's river as the three days penciled into the script.

So, here I references a few modified posts from running material in the celestial thread:

But first:

I plead ignorant when it comes to church apologetics referencing Lehi’s Trail and generally avoid it. Their presentations are deceptive and misleading and they build their case and view everything through a lens that supports the conclusion the Church is true no matter what. I do not do that. I look at the evidence and view the facts as they are but knowing the Book of Mormon is only a faith promoting story that has no real proof or evidence whatsoever.

I had a bit of curiosity aroused by this . I sometimes enjoy google map journeys so checked it out.

Behold:

• Google Earth: Wadi Tayyib Al Ism at 400 ft scale
• Google Earth: Middle East region at 100 mile scale

Here is the route at Book of Mormon Central which shows the total distance between Jerusalem and Tayyib al-Ism. The distance from Jerusalem to the northern tip of the Red Sea (Gulf of Aqaba) is about 200 miles and the final leg leading to Tayyib al-Ism is an additional 74 miles. Thus, the total distance from Jerusalem to Lehi’s camp situated at river Laman is a whopping 274 miles ONE WAY!

The story contains several red flags!

You will recall the first journey involved Lehi and his family making their way southward to the borders of the Red Sea until they reached the river Laman where they set up their first permanent camp. But then Lehi sent his sons back twice on two separate missions:

1. Acquire the brass plates from Laban
2. Pick up and bring back Ishmael and his family

They had found Wadi Tayyib al-Ism, a narrow valley 74 miles south of Aqaba, along the Arabian coastline.

Now, please read page 50

And with that said, I differ with Vogel's interpretation of the text. But maybe I'm wrong; I f-ing doubt it.

[Markk]

What cracks me up is that in Lehi's Journey the apologist's use strict direction points as we do today (1 Nephi 16:13), but once they get into the LGT... real north is east, real south is west, real west is north, and real east is south, or something like that.

One moplogist map I read calls East, "Nephite North."

Thanks for the presentation Dan.