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Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 6:10 pm
by dan vogel
Premiering now!
In this video, I will examine the attempts by Mormon apologists to connect the Book of Mormon’s story of Lehi’s flight from Jerusalem to the Red Sea and subsequent journey through the Arabian Desert to real geographic locations, especially their claim that the Book of Mormon’s Valley of Lemuel has been found in Saudi Arabia. I will show how the apologists have manipulated both text and terrain to produce their evidence in support of Book of Mormon historicity. I will also show how Joseph Smith created his text by simply looking at a map and making inferences, some of which turned out to be incorrect.
https://youtu.be/ZDf9CMeytOI
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 6:14 pm
by Marcus
Listening now! Thanks for doing this topic.
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 6:41 pm
by Shulem
I look forward to digesting this and see what you got.
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 7:45 pm
by drumdude
You’re taking on one of the apologists’ favorite talking points. Can’t wait to hear what you have to say.
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:01 pm
by Marcus
Wow he tore that apart, but very dense and detailed so going to have to watch again. Maybe take notes!
Dan emphasizes, once again, that you have to check the footnotes of mopologists.
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:56 pm
by Shulem
Marcus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:01 pm
Wow he tore that apart, but very dense and detailed so going to have to watch again. Maybe take notes!
Dan emphasizes, once again, that you have to check the footnotes of mopologists.
Okay, I've clocked 25 minutes so far and have some serious differences in interpreting the text, namely, the 3 days travel which leads from point A to point B.
I've covered this in some detail in my geography thread up in Celestial if you need me to refer to that or pull a little text down here.
I'm looking forward to the rest of Dan's video and perhaps need to review the first 25 minutes but I'm shaking my head wondering what the heck?
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 9:04 pm
by Marcus
My favorite ....'apologists are relying on a very tortured reading of the text....' that depends upon apologists deciding 'which Hebrew word Smith MISinterpreted...'
Lol.
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 9:05 pm
by Marcus
Shulem wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:56 pm
Marcus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:01 pm
Wow he tore that apart, but very dense and detailed so going to have to watch again. Maybe take notes!
Dan emphasizes, once again, that you have to check the footnotes of mopologists.
Okay, I've clocked 25 minutes so far and have some serious differences in interpreting the text, namely, the 3 days travel which leads from point A to point B.
I've covered this in some detail in my geography thread up in Celestial if you need me to refer to that or pull a little text down here.
I'm looking forward to the rest of Dan's video and perhaps need to review the first 25 minutes but I'm shaking my head wondering what the heck?
I'd love to take a look--do you have a page link?
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 10:11 pm
by Shulem
Marcus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 9:05 pm
I'd love to take a look--do you have a page link?
Well, actually several.
Look, I understand Dan's arguments about definitions regarding
wilderness and
boundary considering I've given it a great deal of thought myself. But I tend to agree with the apologists about the distance between Jerusalem and the boundary leading up to the tip of the Red Sea (Aqaba) being a separate leg of the journey and the days given for that are wholly missing from the text. I interpret the journey leading from Aqaba down to Laman's river as the
three days penciled into the script.
So, here I references a few modified posts from running material in the celestial thread:
But first:
Shulem wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:17 pm
I plead ignorant when it comes to church apologetics referencing Lehi’s Trail and generally avoid it. Their presentations are deceptive and misleading and they build their case and view everything through a lens that supports the conclusion the Church is true no matter what. I do not do that. I look at the evidence and view the facts as they are but knowing the Book of Mormon is only a faith promoting story that has no real proof or evidence whatsoever.
Shulem wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 10:48 pm
huckelberry wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:52 pm
I had a bit of curiosity aroused by this . I sometimes enjoy google map journeys so checked it out.
Behold:
Here is the route at Book of Mormon Central which shows the total distance between Jerusalem and Tayyib al-Ism. The distance from Jerusalem to the northern tip of the Red Sea (Gulf of Aqaba) is about 200 miles and the final leg leading to Tayyib al-Ism is an additional 74 miles. Thus, the total distance from Jerusalem to Lehi’s camp situated at river Laman is a whopping 274 miles
ONE WAY!
The story contains several
red flags!
You will recall the first journey involved Lehi and his family making their way southward to the borders of the Red Sea until they reached the river Laman where they set up their first permanent camp. But then Lehi sent his sons back twice on two separate missions:
1. Acquire the brass plates from Laban
2. Pick up and bring back Ishmael and his family
Book of Mormon Central wrote:They had found Wadi Tayyib al-Ism, a narrow valley 74 miles south of Aqaba, along the Arabian coastline.
Now, please read page 50
And with that said, I differ with Vogel's interpretation of the text. But maybe I'm wrong; I f-ing doubt it.
Re: Valley of Lemuel in Arabia?
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2024 10:34 pm
by Markk
What cracks me up is that in Lehi's Journey the apologist's use strict direction points as we do today (1 Nephi 16:13), but once they get into the LGT... real north is east, real south is west, real west is north, and real east is south, or something like that.
One moplogist map I read calls East, "Nephite North."
Thanks for the presentation Dan.