Saving Christianity from Christo-fascism

[Kishkumen]

I want to thank all of those Christians and LDS Christians who stand up against Christo-fascism. One way of doing this is by shining a bright light on its heresies. Christo-fascism and Christian Nationalism are not Christian. Those folks who go in for these faddish trends in Christianity that are all about grabbing secular power to force everyone to be Christian (meaning here: to live by Christian rules) are a return to some of the darkest historical trends in Christianity, such as Christian imperialism and colonialism. The apostle Paul became a Christian because of a revelation he had on the road to Damascus, not because someone forced him at the point of a sword. People should not be forced to conform to the beliefs of others in matters where there can be little certainty and agreement. We are not all Christian, and therefore it makes little sense to insist on laws that force a distinctly Christian lifestyle on non-believers. The truth is that the insistence on idiosyncratic virtue by compulsion reveals the weakness and lack of faith of those who would compel the rest of us.

[drumdude]

I would call those who want to limit non-Christian women’s reproductive rights based solely on Christian morality, Christo-fascists.

I don’t see many Christians and Mormons standing up against these new laws that impose Christian beliefs on secular society. Apathy seems to be about the best we get out of them.

[huckelberry]

I would call those who want to limit non-Christian women’s reproductive rights based solely on Christian morality, Christo-fascists.

I don’t see many Christians and Mormons standing up against these new laws that impose Christian beliefs on secular society. Apathy seems to be about the best we get out of them.

Apathy? I do not think this is a thoughtful accusation.

I find it difficult to locate better strategies to counter beliefs at odds with my own in this situation. Christian groups can be very insular. People in Christian nationalist leaning groups do not care what I think Christianity is or what I think America is. I say, I vote. There are many Christians who vote against the sort of thing you are referring to drumdude. If you or anybody else has some ideas for more real or better strategies (beyond complaining that somebody else like me is not doing enough), I really hope to hear.

I am serious, I would like to hear ideas for what can be done to help.

[drumdude]

I would call those who want to limit non-Christian women’s reproductive rights based solely on Christian morality, Christo-fascists.

I don’t see many Christians and Mormons standing up against these new laws that impose Christian beliefs on secular society. Apathy seems to be about the best we get out of them.

Apathy? I do not think this is a thoughtful accusation.

I find it difficult to locate better strategies to counter beliefs at odds with my own in this situation. Christian groups can be very insular. People in Christian nationalist leaning groups do not care what I think Christianity is or what I think America is. I say , I vote. There are many Christians who vote against the sort of thing you are referring to drumdude. If you or anybody else has some ideas for more real or better strategies (beyond complaining that somebody else like me is not doing enough), I really hope to hear.

I am serious, I would like to hear ideas for what can be done to help.

It’s probably been a while since many of us have attended sacrament meeting, but I’m sure you remember many conservative members constantly voicing their conservative opinions during Sunday School, in the hallways, over the stand during fast and testimony.

Christians and Mormons who don’t hold these beliefs need to be more vocal. Or at least equally vocal. In my opinion most of them are silently holding their tongues in the face of these bigoted, backwards, regressive ideas.

[Res Ipsa]

I want to thank all of those Christians and LDS Christians who stand up against Christo-fascism. One way of doing this is by shining a bright light on its heresies. Christo-fascism and Christian Nationalism are not Christian. Those folks who go in for these faddish trends in Christianity that are all about grabbing secular power to force everyone to be Christian (meaning here: to live by Christian rules) are a return to some of the darkest historical trends in Christianity, such as Christian imperialism and colonialism. The apostle Paul became a Christian because of a revelation he had on the road to Damascus, not because someone forced him at the point of a sword. People should not be forced to conform to the beliefs of others in matters where there can be little certainty and agreement. We are not all Christian, and therefore it makes little sense to insist on laws that force a distinctly Christian lifestyle on non-believers. The truth is that the insistence on idiosyncratic virtue by compulsion reveals the weakness and lack of faith of those who would compel the rest of us.

The linked paper has a pretty good description of the New Apostolic Reformation, which is the growing movement within Christianity that believes its members will conquer every aspect of the world before Christ returns. It includes seven mountains domininism and spiritual warfare. They believe that their opponents are literally possessed by demons. They are attempting to raise an army of young people who are ready to die in the war to reclaim the earth for Christ. And they are not just active in the U.S. They are also active in other countries, including sub-saharan Africa, which is expected to produce the greatest number of Christians over the next few decades. It is not a coincidence that some of the harshest laws aimed at gay folks are being enacted in sub-Saharan African countries.

The movement is led by apostles and prophet who say they speak directly to Jesus Christ and are implementing his will.

If this sounds like Visions of Glory, Chad and Lori Daybell, Julie Rowe, and others on the extreme fringes of Mormonism, well, it should. Chad and Lori are Exhibit A to what happens when people become convinced they are engaged in spiritual warfare and that their opponents are possessed by demons.

Huck, I'm agnostic on the question of whether members of any group are responsible for the extremists that tend to evolve in almost every group. in my opinion, learn about the movement, watch for its influence, and push when you see a chance to do so. It's what I do with the bomb throwing anarchists or Marxists that show up to every gathering of folks on the left.

[huckelberry]

From wikipedia: Christian Fascism:

Anti-war and human rights activist George Hunsinger, director of the Centre for Barth Studies at Princeton Theological Seminary, regards the very accusation of "fascism" as a sophisticated theological attack on the biblical depiction of Jesus. He believes that the view of Christ which is accused as Christofascist is in fact the real "Jesus Christ as he is depicted in Scripture". Hunsinger contrasts his preferred understanding of Jesus with the "nonnormative Christology" that self-proclaimed anti-Christofascists offer as an alternative, which he criticizes as extreme relativism that reduces Jesus Christ to "an object of mere personal preference and cultural location". Hunsinger believes that this relativism may contribute to the same problems which Karl Barth saw in Germany's Christian church during the previous century.[18] The strife of the medieval Hussite Wars has led some contemporary historians to condemn their methods as fascist.[19]

This references a division in Christian views which creates barriers for communication. It reflects views by people relatively close to each other. Rest assured regular Christian nationalists do not listen to this. They view outsiders as much further away.

Divisions are deep enough that I have no connections to Christian nationalism, Pentacostalism, or Apostolic restoration. I do not meet them in a hallway. I am not willing to go and picket their churches because I think there are bad influences and bad ideas spreading there. Communication is complicated enough that picket signs mean nothing.

Wikipedia information on the George Hunsinger referred to above:

He has a long history of anti-war and human rights activism and was also an open critic of the war in Iraq, publishing his first article against it in 2002, before the war was launched. He walked the picket lines with Cesar Chavez, worked for William Sloane Coffin Jr. at the Riverside Church Disarmament Program, and was twice arrested with Daniel Berrigan in Good Friday protests against nuclear weapons in Manhattan.

In 2006 he convened the Princeton conference at which the National Religious Campaign Against Torture was founded.[3]

[huckelberry]

I want to thank all of those Christians and LDS Christians who stand up against Christo-fascism. One way of doing this is by shining a bright light on its heresies. Christo-fascism and Christian Nationalism are not Christian. Those folks who go in for these faddish trends in Christianity that are all about grabbing secular power to force everyone to be Christian (meaning here: to live by Christian rules) are a return to some of the darkest historical trends in Christianity, such as Christian imperialism and colonialism. The apostle Paul became a Christian because of a revelation he had on the road to Damascus, not because someone forced him at the point of a sword. People should not be forced to conform to the beliefs of others in matters where there can be little certainty and agreement. We are not all Christian, and therefore it makes little sense to insist on laws that force a distinctly Christian lifestyle on non-believers. The truth is that the insistence on idiosyncratic virtue by compulsion reveals the weakness and lack of faith of those who would compel the rest of us.

The linked paper has a pretty good description of the New Apostolic Reformation, which is the growing movement within Christianity that believes its members will conquer every aspect of the world before Christ returns. It includes seven mountains domininism and spiritual warfare. They believe that their opponents are literally possessed by demons. They are attempting to raise an army of young people who are ready to die in the war to reclaim the earth for Christ. And they are not just active in the U.S. They are also active in other countries, including sub-saharan Africa, which is expected to produce the greatest number of Christians over the next few decades. It is not a coincidence that some of the harshest laws aimed at gay folks are being enacted in sub-Saharan African countries.

The movement is led by apostles and prophet who say they speak directly to Jesus Christ and are implementing his will.

If this sounds like Visions of Glory, Chad and Lori Daybell, Julie Rowe, and others on the extreme fringes of Mormonism, well, it should. Chad and Lori are Exhibit A to what happens when people become convinced they are engaged in spiritual warfare and that their opponents are possessed by demons.

Huck, I'm agnostic on the question of whether members of any group are responsible for the extremists that tend to evolve in almost every group. In my opinion, learn about the movement, watch for its influence, and push when you see a chance to do so. It's what I do with the bomb throwing anarchists or Marxists that show up to every gathering of folks on the left.

Res Ipsa, you may be underestimating how self-isolated these groups are. There is no Christian nationalist group or Apostolic Reformation group. There are a variety of groups who share some ideas and understandings of goals. These little factions (or big mega church things) do not have moderating elements or liberal balancing elements. They are seperate.

I am not going to one of those churches and listening to some long horrid sermon so I can say to somebody at the door that I think they have traded in the good news and God's real hope and plan for a mistake.

Res Ipsa, about Apostolic restoration you did not include a link. I checked Wikipedia as I was not familiar with that particular brand or constellation.

If anybody is interested in pushback, check out Frank Schaeffer.

[huckelberry]

Trying to find out more about this Apostolic restoration:

The New Apostolic Reformation, or NAR, is an unbiblical religious movement that emphasizes experience over Scripture, mysticism over doctrine, and modern-day “apostles” over the plain text of the Bible. Of particular distinction in the New Apostolic Reformation are the role and power of spiritual leaders and miracle-workers, the reception of “new” revelations from God, an over-emphasis on spiritual warfare, and a pursuit of cultural and political control in society. The seeking of signs and wonders in the NAR is always accompanied by blatantly false doctrine.

Growth in the New Apostolic Reformation is driven primarily through small groups and church planting, often completely independent of a parent congregation. The movement is not centrally controlled, and many of its followers will not self-identify as part of it or even recognize the name. All the same, thousands of churches and millions of believers adhere to the teachings of the New Apostolic Reformation. Popular teachers associated with the New Apostolic Reformation include Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, Kim Clement, and Lou Engle.

https://www.gotquestions.org/New-Aposto ... ation.html

This is a conservative Christian Bible answer site that google presented me with. It shows that it would not just be liberal groups which might criticize some of these extremist groups. On the other hand, there are so many sites and folks with all the Bible answers that people tend to hear what they want to or are willing to hear.

Another portion of the same article, the whole is not a great deal longer but has reasonably good observations I think:

According to New Apostolic thinking, mankind lost its dominion over earth as part of the fall of Adam. So Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross not only resolved our sin debt, but it empowered mankind—specifically, Christians—to retake control of the earth. The New Apostolic Reformation sees seven areas in which believers are supposedly empowered and expected to dominate: government, arts, finances, education, religion, family, and media. Of these, the New Apostolic Reformation sees government as the most important because of its ability to influence all of the other facets of life. As a result, the New Apostolic Reformation overtly encourages Christian control over politics, culture, and business. In some ways, this is nothing unusual, as people should be expected to vote and lobby according to their convictions. The New Apostolic Reformation, however, is often accused of pushing for outright theocracy.

Spiritual warfare, according to the New Apostolic Reformation, is meant to resolve worldly concerns. For example, economic troubles or health problems in a particular city are seen as the result of a demonic spirit’s influence. Prayer, research into the specific name of that demon, and other spiritual disciplines are then applied in an effort to combat this presence. This is necessary not only for the health of the region, but also because the church cannot take “dominion” over that area until the demonic control has been lifted.

I have some hope that ill-advised projects will collapse under their own failures.

[Res Ipsa]

The linked paper has a pretty good description of the New Apostolic Reformation, which is the growing movement within Christianity that believes its members will conquer every aspect of the world before Christ returns. It includes seven mountains domininism and spiritual warfare. They believe that their opponents are literally possessed by demons. They are attempting to raise an army of young people who are ready to die in the war to reclaim the earth for Christ. And they are not just active in the U.S. They are also active in other countries, including sub-saharan Africa, which is expected to produce the greatest number of Christians over the next few decades. It is not a coincidence that some of the harshest laws aimed at gay folks are being enacted in sub-Saharan African countries.

The movement is led by apostles and prophet who say they speak directly to Jesus Christ and are implementing his will.

If this sounds like Visions of Glory, Chad and Lori Daybell, Julie Rowe, and others on the extreme fringes of Mormonism, well, it should. Chad and Lori are Exhibit A to what happens when people become convinced they are engaged in spiritual warfare and that their opponents are possessed by demons.

Huck, I'm agnostic on the question of whether members of any group are responsible for the extremists that tend to evolve in almost every group. in my opinion, learn about the movement, watch for its influence, and push when you see a chance to do so. It's what I do with the bomb throwing anarchists or Marxists that show up to every gathering of folks on the left.

Res Ipsa, you may be underestimating how self-isolated these groups are. There is no Christian nationalist group or Apostolic Reformation group. There are a variety of groups who share some ideas and understandings of goals. These little factions (or big mega church things) do not have moderating elements or liberal balancing elements. They are seperate.

I am not going to one of those churches and listening to some long horrid sermon so I can say to somebody at the door that I think they have traded in the good news and God's real hope and plan for a mistake.

Res Ipsa, about Apostolic restoration you did not include a link. I checked Wikipedia as I was not familiar with that particular brand or constellation.

If anybody is interested in pushback, check out Frank Schaeffer.

Sorry, here's the link. https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/jats/vol23/iss2/6/ Yes, the NAR is not organized in one common structure. It is a network whose members go to common workshops, conferences, etc. That's something else the NAR movement has in common with the fringe LDS groups.

[huckelberry]

Thanks Res Ipsa, informative though long-winded article.

From the ending comments:

JOURNAL OF THE ADVENTIST THEOLOGICAL SOCIETY
....
6. The Transformation movement is not just about religious supremacy but also about taking dominion over all aspects of society. These transformational events, movies, and the movement itself, are not necessarily about the fundamental transformation of people and society from bad to good, but rather, about the transformation of society and individuals into the NAR’s version of what they think is good. This transformation does not emphasize a personal conversion to Christ and growth in holiness, but focuses more on a corporate societal transformation. How is that possible when sinful men are still in charge even though they may call themselves Christians?

I am a conservative enough Christian that I find this observation appropriate.