Eternal marriage & temple endowment handshakes, tokens, signs & passwords

[Imwashingmypirate]

How does the Church obtain a persons details, in order that they can have Mormons do rituals using those details?

Family history. It's even more special if you do your own ancestors. Also from censuses (in the UK) and parish records.

[Philo Sofee]

The notion of a work around however is laughable. God is so rigid and insistent about these 'ordinances' being done by mortals, but its okay if done by mortals by proxy for the dead that didn't get it done here? Is the LDS God one that relishes imposing requirements but is okay with workarounds and that does the trick? What a silly being the LDS God must be.

He is obviously not all that rushed or pressured to make sure the Holy Ghost gets around to everyone to get them to hear the Gospel... many billions, that is with a "b", die without ever hearing the word Mormon, let alone much else about it. Now that I know how hush hush the church is about finances and secretive about breaking the law to accumulate insane amounts of money for its own sake with no accountability to anyone on earth, I see their ruse of temples and temple work as a way to milk the cows and fleece the sheep of the congregations of as much money as they possibly can.

[I Have Questions]

How does the Church obtain a persons details, in order that they can have Mormons do rituals using those details?

Family history. It's even more special if you do your own ancestors. Also from censuses (in the UK) and parish records.

Precisely, they take databases where the information was obtained for one purpose, and unilaterally decide to use that information for a completely different and unsanctioned purpose. It’s worth noting that (at least in the UK) census information is anonymised for 100 years. So any vicarious rituals done for people who died less than 100 years ago are based on information from other sources.

It’s akin to a telemarketing company buying up databases so they can monetise the information. And of course, the Church is also monetising the personal information they obtain from hoovering up databases of names.

[huckelberry]

Even back when I was a believer I was not much interested in the baptism for the dead. The idea did not impress me much. Perhaps fortunately the nearest temple was some six hundred miles away so I did not get involved in temple trips for the purpose. When my belief faded I took Philo's view, it was make work to keep peoples activities on a leash. After all I even had some difficulty keeping that idea at a distance when I was a believer.

I have heard in the past that Jews were offended which I could easily understand as a result of centuries of oppression and sometimes forced conversions or highly pressured conversions. I thought most other folks would react with indifference. Perhaps thinking to themselves that they were glad not be in a group being asked to do that.

I am quite surprised by the strong reaction of Marcus and I have a question. Perhaps shallowly I thought, well it certainly best not to mention such things at or near someone's funeral. Making a point of it would be very bad form. I realize I have no business questioning Marcus reaction. It is hers. There may be more to her reaction but one part I do understand is seeing hubris in the LDS claim and action.

My mother was very involved in geneology for the church. My whole life the idea inspired primarily boredom for me. Well perhaps a rare touch of curiosity about an interesting detail. My wife, not Mormon, no Mormon background, became very curious about genealogy and researched quite a bit. I was at first puzzled but then I realized there were interesting human stories to be found. We watch the tv show "Finding your Roots" with interest. Learning can help people understand that background that contributes to making what they are.

Perhaps the Mormon (Joseph Smith's) idea was to recognize the connection between generations and the realization that if who we are is related then our spiritual growth could be related. I have long decided that I believe it is though I do not see any reason for a temple ceremony or proxy baptism to make that work. It is something for which there are already surer foundations.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Family history. It's even more special if you do your own ancestors. Also from censuses (in the UK) and parish records.

Precisely, they take databases where the information was obtained for one purpose, and unilaterally decide to use that information for a completely different and unsanctioned purpose. It’s worth noting that (at least in the UK) census information is anonymised for 100 years. So any vicarious rituals done for people who died less than 100 years ago are based on information from other sources.

It’s akin to a telemarketing company buying up databases so they can monetise the information. And of course, the Church is also monetising the personal information they obtain from hoovering up databases of names.

Feels the same.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Even back when I was a believer I was not much interested in the baptism for the dead. The idea did not impress me much. Perhaps fortunately the nearest temple was some six hundred miles away so I did not get involved in temple trips for the purpose. When my belief faded I took Philo's view, it was make work to keep people's activities on a leash. After all I even had some difficulty keeping that idea at a distance when I was a believer.

I have heard in the past that Jews were offended which I could easily understand as a result of centuries of oppression and sometimes forced conversions or highly pressured conversions. I thought most other folks would react with indifference. Perhaps thinking to themselves that they were glad not be in a group being asked to do that.

I am quite surprised by the strong reaction of Marcus and I have a question. Perhaps shallowly I thought, well it certainly best not to mention such things at or near someone's funeral. Making a point of it would be very bad form. I realize I have no business questioning Marcus reaction. It is hers. There may be more to her reaction but one part I do understand is seeing hubris in the LDS claim and action.

My mother was very involved in geneology for the church. My whole life the idea inspired primarily boredom for me. Well perhaps a rare touch of curiosity about an interesting detail. My wife, not Mormon, no Mormon background, became very curious about genealogy and researched quite a bit. I was at first puzzled but then I realized there were interesting human stories to be found. We watch the tv show "Finding your Roots" with interest. Learning can help people understand that background that contributes to making what they are.

Perhaps the Mormon (Joseph Smith's) idea was to recognize the connection between generations and the realization that if who we are is related then our spiritual growth could be related. I have long decided that I believe it is though I do not see any reason for a temple ceremony or proxy baptism to make that work. It is something for which there are already surer foundations.

Are the church able to get some tax relief per member?

Sorry huckleberry, quoted the wrong post.

[Imwashingmypirate]

The notion of a work around however is laughable. God is so rigid and insistent about these 'ordinances' being done by mortals, but its okay if done by mortals by proxy for the dead that didn't get it done here? Is the LDS God one that relishes imposing requirements but is okay with workarounds and that does the trick? What a silly being the LDS God must be.

He is obviously not all that rushed or pressured to make sure the Holy Ghost gets around to everyone to get them to hear the Gospel. . . many billions, that is with a "b", die without ever hearing the word Mormon, let alone much else about it. Now that I know how hush hush the church is about finances and secretive about breaking the law to accumulate insane amounts of money for its own sake with no accountability to anyone on earth, I see their ruse of temples and temple work as a way to milk the cows and fleece the sheep of the congregations of as much money as they possibly can.

Does the church get tax breaks per member? Or financial incentive. Not sure how it works in the US.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Even back when I was a believer I was not much interested in the baptism for the dead. The idea did not impress me much.Perhaps fortunately the nearest temple was some six hundred miles away so I did not get involved in temple trips for the purpose. When my belief faded I took Philos view, it was make work to keep peoples activities on a leash. After all I even had some difficulty keeping that idea at a distance when I was a believer.

I have heard in the past that Jews were offended which I could easily understand as a result of centuries of oppression and sometimes forced conversions or highly pressured conversions. I thought most other folks would react with indifference. Perhaps thinking to themselves that they were glad not be in a group being asked to do that.

I am quite surprised by the strong reaction of Marcus and I have a question. Perhaps shallowly I thought, well it certainly best not to mention such things at or near someones funeral. Making a point of it would be very bad form. I realize I have no business questioning Marcus reaction. It is hers. There may be more to her reaction but one part I do understand is seeing hubris in the LDS claim and action.

My mother was very involved in geneology for the church. My whole life the idea inspired primarily boredom for me. Well perhaps a rare touch of curiosity about an interesting detail. My wife , not Mormon ,no Mormon background , became very curious about genealogy and researched quite a bit. I was at first puzzled but then I realized there were interesting human stories to be found. We watch the tv show "Finding your Roots" with interest. Learning can help people understand that background that contributes to making what they are.

Perhaps the Mormon (Joseph Smiths) idea was to recognize the connection between generations and the realization that if who we are is related then our spiritual growth could be related. I have long decided that I believe it is though I do not see any reason for a temple ceremony or proxy baptism to make that work. It is something for which there are already surer foundations.

We were taught in young women's that keeping journals and records were important. In the Bible it appears that genealogy and knowing where people came from was important and we learn the house we are supposed to be from in our patriarchal blessings. There is a lot of ties to knowing some sort of historical lineage throughout the church and I think that isn't necessarily related to temple baptisms. It seems to be a part of the nature of the church. It may well be that this has been indoctrinated to encourage the family history work and to give that sense of connection but that would be a very well thought out plan if that's the case.

I know people who have a keen interest in ancestry who aren't church members and also people who are church members. I was fortunate that someone has already done a huge amount of work on my dad's side. I didn't submit this to the church though. It is not my place. It is interesting to see where your history comes from. I think people can find it addictive. My husband's grandma (who has now passed away) used the church websites and was aware that she was accessing things from the Mormon church to do her family history and wasn't bothered by this. They aren't and never have been associated with the church.

[huckelberry]

Are the church able to get some tax relief per member?

Tax relief? What tax?

Sorry you may not realize in US church funds are tax free. That helps out those special religious leaders who must have private jets and gold encrusted mansions and dog houses (not speaking of LDS with that).

[Imwashingmypirate]

Are the church able to get some tax relief per member?

Tax relief? What tax?

Sorry you may not realize in US church funds are tax free. That helps out those special religious leaders who must have private jets and gold encrusted mansions and dog houses (not speaking of LDS with that).

I replied to the wrong post sorry. I didn't realise. Thanks for your answer though. Just wondering if there is some financial benefit from having inflated membership numbers.