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I've always been perplexed with two of the LDS 'church's' continued practices because of their direct conflict with Biblical scripture as well as logic/common sense given doctrine...

1. Why, if God and Christ know each of us, our hearts, our actions, our thoughts, etc., do they apparently require secret handshakes, passwords, tokens and signs that are taught in the temple to pass guardian angels to enter their presence???

2. Why does the 'church' practice eternal marriage with the requirement of being 'sealed' to a spouse for all eternity in a temple when Christ taught in the Book of Matthew that not only is there no such thing as eternal marriage, there is no marriage in heaven at all after we die???

1. Because the Mormon temple cultus has nothing to do with God, Christ, angels, or the endless eternities. It has everything to do with Masonic cosplay with a twist of lemon from Joseph Smith.

2. Because the Mormon temple sealing has nothing to do with God, Christ, angels, or the endless eternities. It has everything to do with Masonic cosplay with a twist of lemon from Joseph Smith, his insatiable libido, and his desire to have a dynastic harem in heaven.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:01 pm

I've always been perplexed with two of the LDS 'church's' continued practices because of their direct conflict with Biblical scripture as well as logic/common sense given doctrine...

1. Why, if God and Christ know each of us, our hearts, our actions, our thoughts, etc., do they apparently require secret handshakes, passwords, tokens and signs that are taught in the temple to pass guardian angels to enter their presence???

2. Why does the 'church' practice eternal marriage with the requirement of being 'sealed' to a spouse for all eternity in a temple when Christ taught in the Book of Matthew that not only is there no such thing as eternal marriage, there is no marriage in heaven at all after we die???

The Brethren teach that they are equal with or above scripture and common sense.

Nothing else matters if they say something that conflicts with something, what they say is doctrine/scripture/gospel.

If the Brethren say Jump, you say how high.

You sound like a bunch of Protestants running down mass. I can understand why people don't find a religion to be their thing. Someone just invited my family to go to a liberal Christian service with a four piece Gospel band, and, ya, know, love that family, but honestly that is not my thing. I would still go to the temple today if I had a temple recommend. I enjoyed it. Freemasonry is something I have always found to be cool. And I am comfortable with Joseph Smith's use of a Freemasonic ritual in the creation of the LDS endowment.

To each their own, but what I really find silly is the casual bigotry that leads people to run down the religious rituals of others as though they were somehow objectively wrong, when objective has nothing to do with the whole kit and caboodle. These are expressions of devotion carried out by people of faith who voluntarily choose to participate in them. And, they can quit at any time. No Gestapo is coming to spy on them or throw them in a dungeon for not doing it. You don't like it? By all means stop and spend your time on other things.

Anyhow, I liked it. I see nothing wrong with it, and to each their own, I say.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2024 12:44 pm

You sound like a bunch of Protestants running down mass. I can understand why people don't find a religion to be their thing. Someone just invited my family to go to a liberal Christian service with a four piece Gospel band, and, ya, know, love that family, but honestly that is not my thing. I would still go to the temple today if I had a temple recommend. I enjoyed it. Freemasonry is something I have always found to be cool. And I am comfortable with Joseph Smith's use of a Freemasonic ritual in the creation of the LDS endowment.

To each their own, but what I really find silly is the casual bigotry that leads people to run down the religious rituals of others as though they were somehow objectively wrong, when objective has nothing to do with the whole kit and caboodle. These are expressions of devotion carried out by people of faith who voluntarily choose to participate in them. And, they can quit at any time. No Gestapo is coming to spy on them or throw them in a dungeon for not doing it. You don't like it? By all means stop and spend your time on other things.

Anyhow, I liked it. I see nothing wrong with it, and to each their own, I say.

In my opinion the Catholic mass, and the Catholic cathedrals really put the Mormon rituals and temples to shame. They look like a Mickey Mouse caricature when seen side by side.

Of course I am biased having grown up Catholic, and I’m sure Mormons are more comfortable in a temple than in a cathedral for that reason.

I do think having cathedrals open to all is objectively more Christlike than secret rituals behind closed doors. It’s hard to avoid the cult association when secrecy is so heavily involved. The west Texas fundamentalist branch even leveraged that sacred secrecy to accomplish their heinous crimes against children.

Perhaps one day Mormon leaders will have a revelation that their temples should be open to all, it would be a welcome theological innovation, I think. And foster some much needed good will from the non-Mormon world.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2024 12:44 pm

To each their own, but what I really find silly is the casual bigotry that leads people to run down the religious rituals of others as though they were somehow objectively wrong, when objective has nothing to do with the whole kit and caboodle.

Excellent point. The precise number of cup rotations in the tea ceremony and the position of the chopsticks in the rice bowl are important to some people, so who are we to disagree?

Moksha wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:38 am

Excellent point. The precise number of cup rotations in the tea ceremony and the position of the chopsticks in the rice bowl are important to some people, so who are we to disagree?

Basically, yes. Some people enjoy ritual and tradition. Others not so much. Or they just prefer other kinds of ritual and tradition. What other people prefer is, for the most part, their business, not mine.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:01 pm

I've always been perplexed with two of the LDS 'church's' continued practices because of their direct conflict with Biblical scripture as well as logic/common sense given doctrine...

1. Why, if God and Christ know each of us, our hearts, our actions, our thoughts, etc., do they apparently require secret handshakes, passwords, tokens and signs that are taught in the temple to pass guardian angels to enter their presence???

2. Why does the 'church' practice eternal marriage with the requirement of being 'sealed' to a spouse for all eternity in a temple when Christ taught in the Book of Matthew that not only is there no such thing as eternal marriage, there is no marriage in heaven at all after we die???

Benotdeceived, For your second point there is long standing LDS response proposing that Jesus was responding in relation to the specific people in the trick question presented to him. The important part was the reality of life after death. I suspect how convincing that argument is depends upon how much you are inclined to trust revelation through Joseph Smith. There is a more general consideration asking what sort of life would it be that erased important family relationships started here on earth. I do not know details about that but religious people of all sorts of flavors expect family connection in an afterlife.

The first point found me thinking that a person could take the understanding that the rituals and promises are for the learning and development of the people involved. Ritual to participate in for learning has been created in a variety of ways. I will nod to Kishumen's observation and propose no condemnation though I do not participate.

This observation about ritual I am not a participant in reminded me of a ritual I do and think important: The sacrament Lord's Supper. It sometimes gets criticized as being about an ugly transaction on the cross. I do not think God needs Jesus' death to forgive but we need it. I see the sacrament as a gift we receive not so much a weird requirement or ritual.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 02, 2024 1:15 am

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 01, 2024 12:44 pm

You sound like a bunch of Protestants running down mass. I can understand why people don't find a religion to be their thing. Someone just invited my family to go to a liberal Christian service with a four piece Gospel band, and, ya, know, love that family, but honestly that is not my thing. I would still go to the temple today if I had a temple recommend. I enjoyed it. Freemasonry is something I have always found to be cool. And I am comfortable with Joseph Smith's use of a Freemasonic ritual in the creation of the LDS endowment.

To each their own, but what I really find silly is the casual bigotry that leads people to run down the religious rituals of others as though they were somehow objectively wrong, when objective has nothing to do with the whole kit and caboodle. These are expressions of devotion carried out by people of faith who voluntarily choose to participate in them. And, they can quit at any time. No Gestapo is coming to spy on them or throw them in a dungeon for not doing it. You don't like it? By all means stop and spend your time on other things.

Anyhow, I liked it. I see nothing wrong with it, and to each their own, I say.

In my opinion the Catholic mass, and the Catholic cathedrals really put the Mormon rituals and temples to shame. They look like a Mickey Mouse caricature when seen side by side.

Of course I am biased having grown up Catholic, and I’m sure Mormons are more comfortable in a temple than in a cathedral for that reason.

I do think having cathedrals open to all is objectively more Christlike than secret rituals behind closed doors. It’s hard to avoid the cult association when secrecy is so heavily involved. The west Texas fundamentalist branch even leveraged that sacred secrecy to accomplish their heinous crimes against children.

Perhaps one day Mormon leaders will have a revelation that their temples should be open to all, it would be a welcome theological innovation, I think. And foster some much needed good will from the non-Mormon world.

Agree, and it seems throughout the week the cathedral is open, which is really nice. If true, at least in the movies they're open.