Gemli explains...

[Physics Guy]

He's posting on a Mormon blog!!

How does that make his statement about non-Mormons accurate?

Every single time a Mormon says 'i know because the spirit told me' or some variation, they are testifying that their beliefs are justified by their sincerity in holding them.

Hmm. You were Mormon, and you seem to believe this sincerely, so ...

But I'd still be surprised if many Mormons really thought that their beliefs were justified by their own sincerity. I've seen people write of the witness of the spirit as a "burning in the bosom", which I take to be a sort of warm feeling inside. While such a sensation doesn't seem to me like convincing evidence for anything, I don't see that the sensation would be the same as sincerity, any more than a stomach ache would be.

[huckelberry]

No, I've never been to one of those. I've read quite a few arguments by most if not all of the kinds of believers gemli mentioned, though, and none of them has ever mentioned their own sincerity as a justification for their belief. That's just not at all a common reason for believing things, even among badly deluded people.

Thinking of both Marcus's and your statement I find myself remembering when I was guilty of standing up in one of those meetings and proposing that I knew the church was true , Joseph was a true prophet etc. It was long ago but I can remember that I thought knowing was justified by a combination of God telling me so, (witness of the Holy Ghost) reason and evidence. I was aware that the evidence was incomplete without that spiritual witness. The result in my mind was a feeling of sincerity . That has similarity to what Marcus may be considering as objective evidence was not the deciding factor. Sincerity might be something I thought I had as a result.

Gemli seems to enjoy simplification for rhetorical points. I do not at all buy his idea that every time humans have a different name or ideas about god that different Gods are to be considered. There are various ways people might think about it. I for one see one God misunderstood in various ways by people all over the world. Is the god of Methodist a different god than that of Presbyterians? The idea that science discovering the process of lightning made Zeus redundant is a rather extreme oversimplification of why humans have believed in gods.

[Rivendale]

The Mormon testimony bearing is all about the sincerity of their beliefs as a justification to others and themselves. Afterall Packer did say “A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!”.

[huckelberry]

The Mormon testimony bearing is all about the sincerity of their beliefs as a justification to others and themselves. Afterall Packer did say “A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!”.

Packer betrayed basic LDS teaching and the belief of many regular believers who think they are following the Holy Ghost.
Perhaps he spoke for himself, that does not recommend his device.

[Marcus]

...But I'd still be surprised if many Mormons really thought that their beliefs were justified by their own sincerity.

Surprise.

Hmm. You were Mormon, and you seem to believe this sincerely, so ...

Oh please. Don't be an ass. It's unbecoming.

I've seen people write of the witness of the spirit as a "burning in the bosom", which I take to be a sort of warm feeling inside. While such a sensation doesn't seem to me like convincing evidence for anything, I don't see that the sensation would be the same as sincerity, any more than a stomach ache would be.

Excellent point. You don't, I don't, most here don't, the world in general doesn't, but...Mormons do.

Mormons are taught to seek that sensation--AND to trust it as proof, and are told if they don't find it, it is their fault, and to seek it again. Fake it til you make it is pushed, hard. No, it's not a logical position, but, that is the Mormon dogma for many. That sensation, called 'promptings of the Spirit' among other things, is evidence to Mormons of their 'sincerity' and therefore is taken as truth.

That's why going to one of my heavily Mormon family reunions is like going to a flat earth society meeting. Their sincerity is palpable, and to them it is entirely sufficient. It's all they've got, and they will protect their right to believe without evidence by cloaking it in sincerity, and by attacking anyone who questions whether sincerity should be a valid rationale for belief. It's pretty bizarre. It's also pretty likely that many, for multiple reasons, are faking that sincerity.

[huckelberry]

Mormons are taught to seek that sensation--AND to trust it as proof, and are told if they don't find it, it is their fault, and to seek it again. Fake it til you make it is pushed, hard. No, it's not a logical position, but, that is the Mormon dogma for many. That sensation, called 'promptings of the Spirit' among other things, is evidence to Mormons of their 'sincerity' and therefore is taken as truth.

That's why going to one of my heavily Mormon family reunions is like going to a flat earth society meeting. Their sincerity is palpable, and to them it is entirely sufficient. It's all they've got, and they will protect their right to believe without evidence by cloaking it in sincerity, and by attacking anyone who questions whether sincerity should be a valid rationale for belief. It's pretty bizarre. It's also pretty likely that many, for multiple reasons, are faking that sincerity.

Thinking back to my teenage years I do not remember the fake it til you make it idea. Perhaps I was lucky to have missed it .Knowing myself, I would have been horrified by the idea. Could I have been roped into It? I can only hope not.

Marcus It took me a couple reading for me to catch your point about sincerity. I have seen patterns in Mormon thought where sincerity is required as a prerequisite for spiritual witness. That can be understood as sincere desire to believe not just a sincere question about what is true.

[Rivendale]

It is explicitly written in Moroni's promise.

Then comes Moroni's promise: “If ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

The quest for a testimony begins with a righteous, sincere desire. Speaking to a group of people who did not yet have testimonies of the gospel, Alma taught: “If ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words” (Alma 32:27).

It’s worth reading the whole article in order to understand a Mormon’s sincerity. To whit:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

Sincerity is the keystone to a Mormon’s faith, without which, their worldview will crumble.

- Doc

[Marcus]

Just to clarify that gemli is indeed engaging in his hobby of performance art:

gemli DanielPeterson
43 minutes ago

If there was demonstrable evidence for theistic claims, it would have been demonstrablated by now.

[Marcus]

And, to respond to the previously implied question of why gemli talks about all religions, but only posts on an lds blog:

gemli moonshine
7 hours ago
Pointing out flaws in one's theological story isn't trolling. Every theology--and there are lots of them-- is nonsense, but some are nonsense on steroids.