This "gemli" fellow seems to get under Dr. Peterson's skin. I don't think that's his reason for posting in this blog, but it's probably the inevitable consequence of someone who challenges the deeply held (although unjustified) beliefs of theists. One day they may see the light. Or not. False beliefs are extremely difficult to expunge, especially if one has constructed an entire worldview on the assumption that they're true. You'd think that the sheer number of discrepant theologies would render them all suspect. But once one has built his entire worldview on this or that theology, it becomes impossible to discard it without a sense of enormous loss. But the best way to avoid falling off a steep cliff is not to have climbed it in the first place.
Also,
gemli Seatimer
17 hours ago
I have it on good authority that gemli is not "anti-Mormon." It might be that sticking one's finger into an open flame is a bad idea, whether the flame is from a kitchen stove, a campfire, an electric heater or a hot iron. It's not the specific item that matters as much as it is what they all have in common, which is that they're all dangerously hot. Gemli focuses on religions because they all make essentially the same fundamental claims of supernatural beings and eternal lives for one species of ape. He thinks it's unseemly for intelligent people to adhere to the scores of discrepant theological claims that defy reason and cannot be falsified. It's telling that thousands of different religions exist which are believed in wholeheartedly by millions of people. They can't all be right, but they can certainly all be wrong.
And re: Looking at DCP et al's "proof,"
gemli
DanielPeterson
6 hours ago
If someone tells me that the moon is made of green cheese, I'm going to tell him that he's wrong. If he responded that I haven't sufficiently examined the evidence, can you understand why I might not feel it necessary to delve further into his claim? But there's a book written by the Moonmen! It tells an extraordinary tale that can't be verified, but, uh, well, um, I believe it! And so do lots of other people who coincidentally spread out from one isolated community. They spread the word, and now there are Moonmens all over the world! Surely that means the story is true! Even though the Marsmen believe in an entirely different story, along with scores of other this-men or that-men claims, it means that when lots of people believe different absurd tales it makes all of them credible! And don't ask for "proof." No only is it insulting, it's indicative of a closed mind that refuses to accept stories that are built on circular evidence. Circles are perfect, so that should put an end to further discussion. Ha! I win.
I would consider myself rich after a few decades of a quarter million a year. After only 4 years, I would have a million dollars in tax free money. That's not counting the free housing, chauffeurs, flights around the world, meals, etc.
The 123 senior leaders of the LDS church are wealthy men. DCP cannot deny that.
And before DCP does his "they were already rich businessmen before" schtick, then why don't these 123 senior leaders forgo their paychecks and give it to the bishops who are actually doing the real work of keeping the LDS business alive?
With that much money, church leaders don’t need members. They also don’t need faith. I’d argue the secretive hoarding is the strongest proof possible that the church’s first presidency has no faith. They’ve literally put their trust in the arm of flesh. So committed are they to that arm of flesh, they’ve lied and broken the law to make it so.
With that much money, church leaders don’t need members. They also don’t need faith. I’d argue the secretive hoarding is the strongest proof possible that the church’s first presidency has no faith. They’ve literally put their trust in the arm of flesh. So committed are they to that arm of flesh, they’ve lied and broken the law to make it so.
Great point. The leaders are evil men, in my opinion.
It is hard to be fully right about anything, but one of the most basic things to learn from the history of science is that wrong ideas that have had some success were probably right in some ways, about done things. Human theories are crude, and apt to be badly wrong. Yep, ‘fraid so. Humans are not very smart. On the simplest issues we can gradually get things straight, but it takes us centuries. We are apes, thinking with lumps of meat. What else could one expect?
All of our religions should be handled with skepticism. That doesn’t mean, though, that they are utterly wrong. They are more likely to be stumbling awkwardly toward something real. We have survived, after all. Tigers live on our sufferance. Our ancestors are unlikely to have been wholly right. They’re unlikely to have been wholly wrong.
...All of our religions should be handled with skepticism. That doesn’t mean, though, that they are utterly wrong. They are more likely to be stumbling awkwardly toward something real. We have survived, after all. Tigers live on our sufferance. Our ancestors are unlikely to have been wholly right. They’re unlikely to have been wholly wrong.
If our ancestors are "unlikely to have been wholly" right or wrong, then by extension they were "more likely to be stumbling awkwardly toward something" either real or NOT real. Not, necessarily, "something real."
With that much money, church leaders don’t need members. They also don’t need faith. I’d argue the secretive hoarding is the strongest proof possible that the church’s first presidency has no faith. They’ve literally put their trust in the arm of flesh. So committed are they to that arm of flesh, they’ve lied and broken the law to make it so.
Agreed. Look at the behavior. The money goes to a select few and their family members. One of my younger siblings grew up in SLC and tells me that of his lds friends, the ones who stay in the church are those who are descendants of current church leaders who have been promised money, college tuition, inheritances, etc., but only on the condition that they stay (at least nominally) lds.
It is hard to be fully right about anything, but one of the most basic things to learn from the history of science is that wrong ideas that have had some success were probably right in some ways, about done things. Human theories are crude, and apt to be badly wrong. Yep, ‘fraid so. Humans are not very smart. On the simplest issues we can gradually get things straight, but it takes us centuries. We are apes, thinking with lumps of meat. What else could one expect?
All of our religions should be handled with skepticism. That doesn’t mean, though, that they are utterly wrong. They are more likely to be stumbling awkwardly toward something real. We have survived, after all. Tigers live on our sufferance. Our ancestors are unlikely to have been wholly right. They’re unlikely to have been wholly wrong.
I knew you were going to say something like this when I saw you responded. The problem is, you're looking at the big picture, as somewhat of an outsider, from a sociological perspective. In an extreme example, I would say it's really hard to call a tribal religion in the heart of a rainforest "wrong" that has persisted in a similar way for for ten thousand years, when our world with all its great advancement will likely obliterate itself within the next hundred years. However, when Gemli comments, he's looking at it from the internal view of the religionist, the way an internal believer sees the value of their religion. In that way, most Moonmen do not see it as you do, that religion as a whole has made this great collective advancement, rather, they believe their moonlord is the way, the truth, and the light, can never be improved upon, and everyone else is filled with darkness and doomed to hell. And likewise, the Marsmen see the moonlord as a terrible perversion of the ancient god of Mars.
In that way, most Moonmen do not see it as you do, that religion as a whole has made this great collective advancement, rather, they believe their Moonlord is the way, the truth, and the light, can never be improved upon, and everyone else is filled with darkness and doomed to hell. And likewise, the Marsmen see the moonlord as a terrible perversion of the ancient god of Mars.
The Moonmen believe that if Gemli were to diligently read the Book of the Moon and pray about it, he would see the truth. The Moonmen would tell the Marsmen to go back to Barsoom. Gemli is on the Moon project list.
