SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

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Doctor Scratch
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SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Over at SeN, Dr. Peterson recently posted a rather long-winded biography of Willard Richards. In conversations about the Witnesses and/or about other early Church leaders, Dr. Peterson seldom ever gets into specifics: it's as if he's reluctant to actually defend his position concerning the credibility of the Church's foundational narrative. Virtually 100% of the time, he'll reference long, boring "scholarly" books authored by his friends. "Go read that!" he'll say.

So it came as quite a surprise to see him actually getting into the nitty-gritty concerning Richards. Willard Richards was, in Dr. Peterson's estimation, "an unusually bright and capable man," and, the Proprietor notes, he doesn't "seem to have accepted the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints without thought or investigation." Dr. Peterson even goes on to frame the whole thing as a sort of "challenge": "to pretend that he (and his cousin Brigham Young before him, who investigated for a year) simply swallowed whatever assertions were served up to them uncritically and without thought is plainly contradictory to their genuine history."

Okay....I guess? But what's so interesting is to backtrack and review the details that DCP finds so persuasive. First of all, he's deriving a major portion of his argument from a book called “Here is Brigham . . .:: Brigham Young, the Years to 1844, by S. Dilworth Young, who, it just so happens, *is a relative of BY's.* Not exactly an objective observer, eh? No wonder Peterson finds his account believable. Even if we treat the account as accurate (and DCP himself notes that Dilworth Young "wasn't a scholar"), there are portions that seem to have flown over the Chief Mopologist's head:
Willard had always shown an independence of spirit in family affairs. He had read a copy of the Book of Mormon and had been profoundly influenced by it. Twice reading through it, with a strong spirit of testimony accompanying the reading, convinced him that he must know more about it and the people from which it came.
Remember: DCP said that Richards *did not* "seem to have accepted the claims of the Church...without thought or investigation." Uh, this passage says, right there--plain as day--that he had "a strong spirit of testimony accompanying the reading." Did he *question* this "feeling"? And what was the feeling? Has there ever been a case, in the entire 200+ year history of faith-promoting stories, where a Church investigator had a "strong spirit of testimony" and then *didn't* wind up joining the Church? The point being: this is pretty terrible evidence of Richards's alleged 'questioning' nature. If anything, this shows him as someone who is credulous and naturally inclined towards religious feelings.

The story continues, with Richards enduring an illness ("palsy") and then heading off to Kirtland where he stays in the home of his first cousin, Brigham Young. Dilworth Young writes that Richards "Then followed nearly three months of most intense investigation. Willard was well versed in the Bible and in the tenets of the Protestants of his day. Every objection he raised was countered by Brigham; every doctrine was followed through and justified by the Bible; every error of doctrine common to the churches of the day was pointed out by Brigham, argued through, and the truth substituted in the mind of Willard.[/quote]

"Intense investigation"? What does that mean, exactly? First, he is in Brigham Young's house. How aggressive was he going to be? And BY was his cousin, and which Dilworth Young says that Richards also got the perspectives of "apostates" (who, exactly?), who do you think he's going to be more likely to believe (especially given his "strong spirit of testimony")--his own flesh and blood, who was housing him in Kirkland, or these anonymous "apostates"? Of course, Richards is eventually baptized, and Dilworth Young gives us a classic story of Latter-day Saint suffering: Heber Kimball has to actually chop off the ice on the creek so that Richards can be baptized. Again I ask: is this truly evidence of someone who is carefully weighing out evidence? Or is it better characterized as someone in the grip of a religious fervor?

I would say that I'm surprised that DCP seemingly read this with such an uncritical eye, but of course it's not surprising: of course he accepts all of this without much thought at all. Not only is it *not* questionable (and remember: the author of this fails one of the Mopologists' own fundamental tests--he's "not a scholar"), but it's actually evidence that careful, objective thinkers convert to Mormonism!

Later in the blog entry, we get the de rigueur mention of Richards's 'academic' credentials: he had a "teacher's certificate." He studied "physical mechanics and science." Later, he even became a doctor! Hey: it's not Oxford or the Ivy League, but it certainly makes the whole thing more palatable for the credential-obsessed Mopologists.

But there was yet another detail that seemed to have escaped Dr. Peterson's notice:
In Nauvoo, Illinois, Willard became both Joseph Smith’s private secretary and Nauvoo Temple recorder in December 1841. Twelve months later, in December 1842, he was appointed Church Historian and Recorder, a position that he held until his death. He wrote a total of 1,884 pages of Joseph Smith’s history, and what he wrote has been largely preserved in the so-called “Documentary History of the Church” — more properly The History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, edited by B. H. Roberts.
Wow: *1,884* pages? All about Joseph Smith? Tell me: is this the work of a careful, objective reviewer of the truthfulness of Mormonism? Or, instead, does this speak to Richards's obsession--his veneration, even, of Joseph Smith--and his function as a kind of religiously-appointed "fan-boy"? Dr. Peterson is fond of referring to this board as "obsessed." But consider this: for Richards to have produced those 1,884 pages, he would have needed to have written an entire page--by hand, with ink and quill, mind you--every day for more than 5 years. Richards only lived to the age of 49, which meant that a rather huge percentage of his life was spent penning all these thousands of pages about Joseph Smith.

At the end of the blog entry, Dr. Peterson writes, "Willard Richards was clearly, it seems to me, an unusually bright and capable man." Yes: "it seems to me." That's a good way of putting--i.e., emphasizing his highly tendentious and subjective take on the matter--because the details here are not credible at all--not by a long shot. And no wonder that the Mopologist President never posts specific details about all these allegedly "credible" witnesses. If this is the best he's got, then he might as well have nothing at all.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by I Have Questions »

Richards was a close confidant of Joseph Smith, and became a practitioner of polygamy. There is indication that his first plural wife was 26-year-old Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde, who was already married to Orson Hyde (Hyde was away on a mission at the time).[13][15] Richards returned to Richmond and retrieved his wife Jennetta, arriving back in Nauvoo on November 21, 1842.[14]

On January 18, 1843, Richards married sixteen-year-old Sarah Longstroth and fourteen-year-old Nanny Longstroth, who were sisters. Joseph Smith officiated the wedding.[16][13] Richards married eleven wives in total.[10]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Richards

Richards was 39 years old when he married the 16 year old, and 14 year old, Longstroth sisters. I wonder what it was that attracted Richards to become so interested in Mormonism…
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Philo Sofee »

I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:31 pm
Richards was a close confidant of Joseph Smith, and became a practitioner of polygamy. There is indication that his first plural wife was 26-year-old Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde, who was already married to Orson Hyde (Hyde was away on a mission at the time).[13][15] Richards returned to Richmond and retrieved his wife Jennetta, arriving back in Nauvoo on November 21, 1842.[14]

On January 18, 1843, Richards married sixteen-year-old Sarah Longstroth and fourteen-year-old Nanny Longstroth, who were sisters. Joseph Smith officiated the wedding.[16][13] Richards married eleven wives in total.[10]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Richards

Richards was 39 years old when he married the 16 year old, and 14 year old, Longstroth sisters. I wonder what it was that attracted Richards to become so interested in Mormonism…
Oh definitely the seer stone. without question since, as anyone knows, young sexy girls could not have competed with the seer stone in early Mormonism and Joseph Smith's revelations of polygamy and the secrecy necessary to keep their lives on earth... :roll:
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Again I ask: is this truly evidence of someone who is carefully weighing out evidence? Or is it better characterized as someone in the grip of a religious fervor?
It's someone in the grip of religious fervor. Although, given what IHAQ found, it was likely more about what he was gripping, punishing, and polishing non-stop after the manner of the founder of his religion.
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Failed Prophecy »

Why can't it be both? In fact, this seems to be a bit of a confessional of DCP. He is bright and capable AND delusional and obsessed. In fact that's kind of a good description of most Mopologetics. None of them seems dull and incapable. All of them are surely obsessed with defending the truth claims of the LDS church (filtered through their lens of acceptability). Delusional is in the eye of the beholder.

This isn't even all that remarkable and it's surely not a Mormon or Mopologetic exclusive. It usually takes a certain amount of intelligence to feed an obsession and support a delusion. Go to any large organization and you will see the true believers who are always above average in intelligence and to some degree delusional and obsessed.
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Failed Prophecy wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:44 pm
Why can't it be both? In fact, this seems to be a bit of a confessional of DCP. He is bright and capable AND delusional and obsessed. In fact that's kind of a good description of most Mopologetics. None of them seems dull and incapable. All of them are surely obsessed with defending the truth claims of the LDS church (filtered through their lens of acceptability). Delusional is in the eye of the beholder.

This isn't even all that remarkable and it's surely not a Mormon or Mopologetic exclusive. It usually takes a certain amount of intelligence to feed an obsession and support a delusion. Go to any large organization and you will see the true believers who are always above average in intelligence and to some degree delusional and obsessed.
Great points here. The problem is that Mopologetics--and DCP in particular--have placed so much importance on "the Witnesses," and the character / believability of these people. It has become so repetitious that is pretty much the primary means of defending the Church these days. But Dr. Peterson's approach is remarkably under-headed and simplistic: he seldom ever puts forth much of a case. Instead, he just repeats--over and over and over and over again (sort of like Gemli, perhaps?)--that he's "impressed" with these guys. Why is he impressed, you might be forgiven for wondering? Well, go read this book by a hardcore TBM! So this recent post from him was unusual because he actually did get into some of the character complexities of Richards. But guess what? The details undermine his arguments in a lot of ways. Does the fact that someone like Willard Richards believed in the Church constitute "evidence," as DCP has said? Yeah, I guess so, but this is sort of like saying that Jesus's face burned into a piece of toast is evidence of Christ's resurrection. And what if the person with the burnt toast has a PhD from Oxford? Wow--now *that* is impressive! This is literally the level of "evidence" that DCP is promoting. Frankly, his apologetic tactics were more effective back when he was engaging in smear campaigns.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Res Ipsa »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:11 pm
Failed Prophecy wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:44 pm
Why can't it be both? In fact, this seems to be a bit of a confessional of DCP. He is bright and capable AND delusional and obsessed. In fact that's kind of a good description of most Mopologetics. None of them seems dull and incapable. All of them are surely obsessed with defending the truth claims of the LDS church (filtered through their lens of acceptability). Delusional is in the eye of the beholder.

This isn't even all that remarkable and it's surely not a Mormon or Mopologetic exclusive. It usually takes a certain amount of intelligence to feed an obsession and support a delusion. Go to any large organization and you will see the true believers who are always above average in intelligence and to some degree delusional and obsessed.
Great points here. The problem is that Mopologetics--and DCP in particular--have placed so much importance on "the Witnesses," and the character / believability of these people. It has become so repetitious that is pretty much the primary means of defending the Church these days. But Dr. Peterson's approach is remarkably under-headed and simplistic: he seldom ever puts forth much of a case. Instead, he just repeats--over and over and over and over again (sort of like Gemli, perhaps?)--that he's "impressed" with these guys. Why is he impressed, you might be forgiven for wondering? Well, go read this book by a hardcore TBM! So this recent post from him was unusual because he actually did get into some of the character complexities of Richards. But guess what? The details undermine his arguments in a lot of ways. Does the fact that someone like Willard Richards believed in the Church constitute "evidence," as DCP has said? Yeah, I guess so, but this is sort of like saying that Jesus's face burned into a piece of toast is evidence of Christ's resurrection. And what if the person with the burnt toast has a PhD from Oxford? Wow--now *that* is impressive! This is literally the level of "evidence" that DCP is promoting. Frankly, his apologetic tactics were more effective back when he was engaging in smear campaigns.
Good observations, Dr. Scratch. Michael Shermer explains in this piece why the “Here’s a smart guy who believes this” is a terrible argument. https://michaelshermer.com/sciam-column ... rd-things/ I highly recommend Shermer’s Book.
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Imwashingmypirate »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 6:02 pm


"Intense investigation"? What does that mean, exactly? First, he is in Brigham Young's house. How aggressive was he going to be? And BY was his cousin, and which Dilworth Young says that Richards also got the perspectives of "apostates" (who, exactly?), who do you think he's going to be more likely to believe (especially given his "strong spirit of testimony")--his own flesh and blood, who was housing him in Kirkland, or these anonymous "apostates"? Of course, Richards is eventually baptized,
Probably about as intense as you can get in the 1800s.

Kinda sounds like he did question things and didn't go into things lightly as suggested... At least to me. He probably could have questioned longer. But I'm sure a lot of people took less convincing. So I see no wrong in DCP saying:
he doesn't "seem to have accepted the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints without thought or investigation."
I don't disregard the general consensus on DCP. I haven't read enough but I sense the jist in what I have seen but I think in this instance, I would have probably said something similar if I was reviewing the parts of the biography that you shared. (Totally irrelevant, I did a module at uni called American Biography, I just wanted to do an English module but it filled up. Basically each week we had to read a biography and then review it. That's the worst grade I had out of all of my modules lol).


Edit: improving grammar (I think).
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Imwashingmypirate »

I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:31 pm
Richards was a close confidant of Joseph Smith, and became a practitioner of polygamy. There is indication that his first plural wife was 26-year-old Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde, who was already married to Orson Hyde (Hyde was away on a mission at the time).[13][15] Richards returned to Richmond and retrieved his wife Jennetta, arriving back in Nauvoo on November 21, 1842.[14]

On January 18, 1843, Richards married sixteen-year-old Sarah Longstroth and fourteen-year-old Nanny Longstroth, who were sisters. Joseph Smith officiated the wedding.[16][13] Richards married eleven wives in total.[10]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willard_Richards

Richards was 39 years old when he married the 16 year old, and 14 year old, Longstroth sisters. I wonder what it was that attracted Richards to become so interested in Mormonism…
Where's the puking emoji 🤮
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Re: SeN on Willard Richards: "unusually bright and capable"? Or Delusional and "Obsessed"?

Post by Imwashingmypirate »

If the intent is that clever thinkers converting is proof of validation (which is ridiculous, even the most intelligent people can get into all sorts)... Oh my goodness, I forgot what I was going to say... Mind went blank... :O

Duuuuuude... It's not often I actually have a relevant point.

Bahh. Anyway, I'll just share my opinion. The thought out paragraph is gone lol...

How can we compare conversions then with conversions now and with intelligence?

They didn't have access to all of the opinions and articles and research that we have. They weren't able to Google whether there were historical findings relating to the Book of Mormon. They could only really go by their communities, and visitors and wherever they went on their travels. They would be more accepting of what they knew and Mormonism has similarities to evangelism. The way they talk at the evangelist church we sometimes go to is very similar. One can doubt and question and still convert for reasons that might not be shared with others. Or they can truly be converted.

So we can't assign how we interpret things and how we question and research to people back then. And we can't assume that just because someone is a thinker it means that people should take that to mean that their faith has more merit than someone who maybe does little more than household chores.
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