"Don’t Call Trans People ‘Brave’,” Really?

[markc]

Hi all,

This is my new article this week, titled "Don’t Call Trans People ‘Brave’,” Really?
https://chumark54.substack.com/p/don't-c ... ave-really

But this article has nothing to do with Mormonism; it's an "extension" to my article from last week (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158479&sid=18f9015c ... 4773bfed43). I hope it's appropriate. If not, my apologies, and feel free to take it down from the forum. Though if we look at the far right, fundamentalists' attitude toward LGBTQ people nowadays, I think it's at least related to Christianity to some degree.

Anyway, thanks.

[huckelberry]

I read your article and found at least some interest. I would expect that in most situation a trans person wants to fit into the natural flow of human relations without trans being a focus issue or problem. In almost all situations saying your brave would be an othering statement putting up a barrier. Perhaps deep into a personal discussion about trans and difficulties the word brave might be tried, or not.

I hope to be able to relate to a trans individual with respect for them as a person without having to make it some special situation. I do not think I have any real understanding of a transperson's reasons or experience.

Because the subject matter is on a discussion board I will volunteer a comment. I think social gender expectations have been and continue to be too rigid. It would be good if a girl can have a real interest in math or science without thinking that is unfitting or inappropriate. It should not mean she should turn into a boy.(one of many possible examples) Most people would not feel such a need but one could wonder if popular group excitement could overinfluence young individuals struggling with developing a self. I realize there is evidence of deeper issues for some people why change of sex is seen as appropriate.

[markc]

I read your article and found at least some interest. I would expect that in most situation a trans person wants to fit into the natural flow of human relations without trans being a focus issue or problem. In almost all situations saying your brave would be an othering statement putting up a barrier. Perhaps deep into a personal discussion about trans and difficulties the word brave might be tried, or not.

I hope to be able to relate to a trans individual with respect for them as a person without having to make it some special situation. I do not think I have any real understanding of a transperson's reasons or experience.

Because the subject matter is on a discussion board I will volunteer a comment. I think social gender expectations have been and continue to be too rigid. It would be good if a girl can have a real interest in math or science without thinking that is unfitting or inappropriate. It should not mean she should turn into a boy.(one of many possible examples) Most people would not feel such a need but one could wonder if popular group excitement could overinfluence young individuals struggling with developing a self. I realize there is evidence of deeper issues for some people why change of sex is seen as appropriate.

Great insight, thanks. I like what you said, "I would expect that in most situation a trans person wants to fit into the natural flow of human relations without trans being a focus issue or problem."

[Imwashingmypirate]

. It would be good if a girl can have a real interest in math or science without thinking that is unfitting or inappropriate. It should not mean she should turn into a boy.

I get your point and the analogy. Just want to say though, when I was studying Physics. There was quite a few females in the class. Not quite half but more than a quarter. But I think there is a push in the UK to encourage women into sciences. In the engineering class though, there were very few females. I did best on my engineering module. My physics supervisor asked if I wanted to switch to engineering. I said no. But yes your analogy stands.

I think a lot of the issues people are facing today is finding themselves enjoying things that have been assigned to genders and so wonder if that means they are the wrong gender and feel confused when actually it's the social inclination to decide what is suitable for males and what is suitable for females. Take away that assignment of clothes, hobbies, jobs and maybe we would find less confusion. (I know this doesn't apply to everyone and there is a whole concoction of reasons and dynamics that comes into play making even within the transgender community, differences.

[Kishkumen]

People are people, and we should treat everyone with dignity and respect. Some lives are more challenging than others. I feel for those who struggle. I am not big into making generalizations about who has it harder than who. I just thank my lucky stars that I am still here making my way the best I can. I hope everyone else can do as well or better. Whatever I can do to make their road easier, that is doable, at least, I will do or try. Being respectful is a good start. There is no good reason to go out of your way to make someone else’s life more challenging than it is.

[Imwashingmypirate]

People are people, and we should treat everyone with dignity and respect. Some lives are more challenging than others. I feel for those who struggle. I am not big into making generalizations about who has it harder than who. I just thank my lucky stars that I am still here making my way the best I can. I hope everyone else can do as well or better. Whatever I can do to make their road easier, that is doable, at least, I will do or try. Being respectful is a good start. There is no good reason to go out of your way to make someone else’s life more challenging than it is.

Life is relative. What is suffering for one can be easy for another.

[huckelberry]

. It would be good if a girl can have a real interest in math or science without thinking that is unfitting or inappropriate. It should not mean she should turn into a boy.

I get your point and the analogy. Just want to say though, when I was studying Physics. There was quite a few females in the class. Not quite half but more than a quarter. But I think there is a push in the UK to encourage women into sciences. In the engineering class though, there were very few females. I did best on my engineering module. My physics supervisor asked if I wanted to switch to engineering. I said no. But yes your analogy stands.

I think a lot of the issues people are facing today is finding themselves enjoying things that have been assigned to genders and so wonder if that means they are the wrong gender and feel confused when actually it's the social inclination to decide what is suitable for males and what is suitable for females. Take away that assignment of clothes, hobbies, jobs and maybe we would find less confusion. (I know this doesn't apply to everyone and there is a whole concoction of reasons and dynamics that comes into play making even within the transgender community, differences.

I realize there has been a good deal of increased flexibility in gender expectation and participation in past few decades. I just watched a youtube by a persobable young lady detailing experience in a serious chess tournament.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNmROMdcakQ
hard to imagine 50 years ago.
and pleasantly interesting if you have any chess interest.

[Marcus]

I enjoyed reading your article, thank you.

I wanted to comment on one small section where you noted that the "article doesn’t offer an alternative" to telling someone they are brave, and you ask, what would be an alternative?

... the phrase “You’re brave” in many cases isn’t only a compliment in social situations, it’s a conversation starter. By implying it to be inappropriate and ignorant, however, you stop the conversation. The potential consequence is people who want to be allies now being afraid to talk to you, feeling that they have to tiptoe around you like walking on thin ice: “What can I say to not offend her/him without knowing it?” Eventually they probably will opt to avoid contact. I don’t believe that’s what you want...

I think you are taking a slightly incorrect view of the responsibility of participants in conversations, here. If a "conversation starter" comment feels inappropriate to the recipient and makes them uncomfortable, they are under no obligation to tolerate that uncomfortable feeling that something inappropriate is happening, just because showing how they feel
might stop a conversation. Feeling uncomfortable due to what you see as an inappropriate comment is EXACTLY the reason to stop a conversation.

If the potential consequence is the other person can't think of anything at all to say that wouldn't offend, then they aren't treating conversations like this as they would conversations with any other person. Which is the actual problem, in my opinion.

[Res Ipsa]

Hi Mark,

FYI, we would not take your article down for posting it in the wrong place. At most, we would move this thread from the “Mormon Discussions” side of the board to the corresponding Kingdom on the Non-Mormon Discussions side of the board — Spirit Paradise.

The article your post is based on discusses being an “ally,” which is a term of art among social justice folks. Not being an “ally” doesn’t make a person an enemy. One can still be supportive of trans people without being an “ally.”

There is a ton of literature out there about being an ally. The most important as piece of being an ally is listening to what they say and taking what they say seriously. The reason this is important is privilege. Neither you nor I have the experience of going through life as a transportation. I go through life seeing through the lens as a cis person. I don’t have to think about how it feels or what it means to identify with a gender that doesn’t match my sex. I never have think about choosing the “wrong” bathroom, etc.

So, when you dissect the article’s objection to being told by a stranger or acquaintance that “you’re so brave,” you’re doing it from a point of privilege. If I were being an ally, I wouldn’t suggest that the trans person shouldn’t feel that way. That’s either not listening or not taking the trans person seriously.

I live in a part of the country that is relatively accepting of gender queer folks. And my hobby, tabletop gaming, is generally welcoming to the same folks. As a consequence, I interact frequently with trans folks and have many friends who are trans. What they all have in common is that they just want to go about life being their best authentic selves just like I do. No one describes cis folks as “brave” for living in conformity with their gender identity and the trans folks I’ve interacted with aren’t looking for special recognition for just doing what cis people do.

Allies take their cues from those they choose to be allies of and have their back when they are attacked, assaulted, or disparaged for simply being who they are. Put another way, why would an ally insist on complimenting someone in a way that doesn’t feel complimentary at all to the person on the receiving end?

[Physics Guy]

I’m not sure anyone ever wants to told that they’re brave. Being told that you were brave, in that awful past situation that is now safely over—that might be okay, although heroes probably tire of it. Being told that you currently are being brave is being reminded of how much you have about which to be brave, of how bad things are for you now. It’s “Wow, it sucks to be you.”

Who ever wants to hear that?

I’d much rather get the message that Hey, things are okay for me now, and they’re going to get better. I don’t need to be brave; I’m okay.

And if I’m really not feeling okay, that means I’m not feeling brave. So I’m just not seeing much good use case for “you’re brave”.