Ideology, Religion, and Mormonism

[Kishkumen]

Years ago, I read a couple of books by the late Mircea Eliade, longtime faculty at University of Chicago’s Divinity School. I thought these books were amazing. They really appealed to me and seemed to mesh well with my reading of Hugh Nibley. Later, as a BYU student, I was jazzed to learn that Eliade had praised Nibley’s work. It was one of those times I felt like I must be hitting the right groove, so to speak.

Yesterday, I devoured Bruce Lincoln’s book (student of Eliade and emeritus Chicago Divinity faculty) about the mysterious murder of Eliade’s protege and successor Ioan Culianu. The book begins with a long discussion of Eliade’s politics back in the 1930s in Romania. Alas, it turns out that Eliade was pretty clearly a fascist and an anti-Semite, who at one point pretty clearly approved of violence to achieve his party’s goals. I have to say this was devastating news to me. Although Eliade is pretty far in my rear view mirror, I still think of that time in my life and the Nibley nexus pretty fondly.

But it makes me wonder about the yearning for a sacred past shared by Eliade and Nibley. Eliade was motivated by a deep seated conviction that an ethnocentric mystical Orthodoxy was the key to Romania’s future, and it seems he never left this obsession completely behind. Nibley had a similar devotion to the religion of Brigham Young, seeing it as “the key” to Zion.

It would be easy to conclude that the religious yearnings of the early 20th century were hopelessly entangled in the current ideologies, but then I wonder if today is any different. We still see apocalyptic lunacy and anti-Semitic conspiracy theorizing running amok. It seems to be on the fringes, but it was not so long ago that upscale versions of these “ideas” were very much at the center of serious cultural debate and political action. Today our politics are so debased that it is the rest of us against the MAGA looneys. MAGA is just stripped of any pretense of anything ennobling. And yet a large part of the population still finds it compelling for some inscrutable reason.

Is this yearning for the sacred hopelessly in the thrall of modern ideological golden calves?

Recently a Facebook friend noted the leftward drift in BYU faculty’s opinions. This had me wondering whether by implication the LDS Church is a right wing organization? I am guessing this person would say no. My fear is that there is a kind of fascist strain in Christianity today, that people are drawn to push their religion on others to the point that they will abandon democracy to make sure the world conforms to their beliefs. It looks to me to be a persistent feature of our politics in the “West.” A kind of yearning for Christian Rome? A desire for its Protestant analog?

I don’t know, but it kinda freaks me out. Not that the extremes of the Left are not freaky. Less freaky in some ways to me, but Nibley, for example, was a very decidedly leftist person in some regards. He and Eliade were very close on some issues and yet so far apart in others.

Just trying to sort this all out.

[Philo Sofee]

This post was a revelation to me Reverend... stunning, saddening, yet enlightening all wrapped up together. Much to ponder, thank you much for sharing your musings and ponderings out loud here. ALWAYS welcome to do so. I enjoy them immensely.

[huckelberry]

This is an interesting opening. I have not studied Eliade though the name has crossed my attention possible connected with Joseph Campbell, area of concern overlapping.

I found myself thinking this might be pointing to areas of human psychology that help generate things like Trump enthusiasm which is a bit of a puzzling subject.

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:22 pm
Having lived all of my life in the Southeast, I saw great benefit within the African American community here during Trump’s presidency. Benefit that I have never seen in 50-ish+ years. I, strikingly, have seen what has been in my lifetime an oppressed community, now thriving, upwardly mobile, and finally in possession of a long overdue rightful sense of dignity. Much of that oppression coming from our own U.S. government. For this reason I can focus on Trump’s positive aspects and the benefits of his presidency and not get caught up in persuasion of others who in self-righteousness are quick to point out the speck in someone else’s eye, while ignoring the plank in their own.

I have puzzled over just what could have possibly have created the idea that Trump provided for black Americans a long overdue sense of dignity and upward mobility. I do not see any reason for that idea and pointed to objective information hoping fro clarification. Perhaps the idea is not one of objective details but of vision and hope. Clearly Trump provides hope for some people and black Americans certainly may share those same hopes. That some should see hope in Trump is no more mysterious than the fact many white Americans find hope there.

In Terrestial Kishkumen posted a relevant discussion about Nibley, Eliade and extremist hopes for reestablishing a sacred past for the country. Such a hope perhaps not fully articulated may be energizing Evangelical energy for Trump. Perhaps the lack of details in the hope helps it to spread and continue. It may not need evidence, specifics or achievements. Expectation may be stronger.

Is there another explanation for tacking the word "again" on the slogan?

[Gadianton]

Thanks for the though-provoking post, Reverend.

Taking a step back, I think history is one of those subjects that naturally attracts ideologues, including those who yearn for a sacred past. Heck, weren't the ancients themselves already yearning for a sacred past? Isn't that the essence of scripture? "The past" therefore I am personally special is a way of thinking deeply ingrained in us, some take it to greater extremes than others.

[msnobody]

This is an interesting opening. I have not studied Eliade though the name has crossed my attention possible connected with Joseph Campbell, area of concern overlapping.

I found myself thinking this might be pointing to areas of human psychology that help generate things like Trump enthusiasm which is a bit of a puzzling subject.

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 20, 2024 11:22 pm
Having lived all of my life in the Southeast, I saw great benefit within the African American community here during Trump’s presidency. Benefit that I have never seen in 50-ish+ years. I, strikingly, have seen what has been in my lifetime an oppressed community, now thriving, upwardly mobile, and finally in possession of a long overdue rightful sense of dignity. Much of that oppression coming from our own U.S. government. For this reason I can focus on Trump’s positive aspects and the benefits of his presidency and not get caught up in persuasion of others who in self-righteousness are quick to point out the speck in someone else’s eye, while ignoring the plank in their own.

I have puzzled over just what could have possibly have created the idea that Trump provided for black Americans a long overdue sense of dignity and upward mobility. I do not see any reason for that idea and pointed to objective information hoping fro clarification. Perhaps the idea is not one of objective details but of vision and hope. Clearly Trump provides hope for some people and black Americans certainly may share those same hopes. That some should see hope in Trump is no more mysterious than the fact many white Americans find hope there.

In Terrestial Kishkumen posted a relevant discussion about Nibley, Eliade and extremist hopes for reestablishing a sacred past for the country. Such a hope perhaps not fully articulated may be energizing Evangelical energy for Trump. Perhaps the lack of details in the hope helps it to spread and continue. It may not need evidence, specifics or achievements. Expectation may be stronger.

Is there another explanation for tacking the word "again" on the slogan?

I am not one much on participating in political discussion because more often than not a straw man argument generally follows. I will offer one explanation for the statement I made previously, and likely will not participate in further discussion on the matter.

I was raised in the Southeastern U.S. In the culture in which I was raised, it has been an observation of mine that my Americans of African descent contemporaries have for years been serially groomed by their political party of choice to be dependent long term on the government through various government programs, etc. I observed Presidential candidate/President Trump bring this to light, thereby helping many people break free from an engrained way of thinking, to a new mindset, which offered hope and the reality, that has been there, that one could achieve what was previously thought to be reserved only for the white man. That coupled with the economy that was in place at the time, and other factors. I hope that makes my statement less puzzling for you. It may be that you’d just have to of lived here all your life making these observations for yourself to understand where I’m coming from.

[Physics Guy]

It might take a very otherworldly religion to remain entirely aloof from state power, but some religions have been more theocratic than others. Brigham Young's Utah regime has got to be have been on one end of the spectrum. Orthodox Christianity has also been toward that end, I think. The Eastern Church never got any Emperors to stand in the snow and plead for forgiveness from any Pope, because while the Western Church had Popes with localised secular power as well as pretensions to universal spiritual authority, the secular rulers in Byzantine lands essentially were their own popes. The Kingdom of God and the kingdoms of this world were a little less separate.

That's my impression, at any rate, from an admittedly small amount of reading. I'm not surprised if an enthusiast for Orthodoxy also had a Fascist streak and an appreciation for a BY apologist.

[huckelberry]

This is an interesting opening. I have not studied Eliade though the name has crossed my attention possible connected with Joseph Campbell, area of concern overlapping.

I found myself thinking this might be pointing to areas of human psychology that help generate things like Trump enthusiasm which is a bit of a puzzling subject.

msnobody wrote: ↑
I have puzzled over just what could have possibly have created the idea that Trump provided for black Americans a long overdue sense of dignity and upward mobility. I do not see any reason for that idea and pointed to objective information hoping fro clarification. Perhaps the idea is not one of objective details but of vision and hope. Clearly Trump provides hope for some people and black Americans certainly may share those same hopes. That some should see hope in Trump is no more mysterious than the fact many white Americans find hope there.

In Terrestial Kishkumen posted a relevant discussion about Nibley, Eliade and extremist hopes for reestablishing a sacred past for the country. Such a hope perhaps not fully articulated may be energizing Evangelical energy for Trump. Perhaps the lack of details in the hope helps it to spread and continue. It may not need evidence, specifics or achievements. Expectation may be stronger.

Is there another explanation for tacking the word "again" on the slogan?

I am not one much on participating in political discussion because more often than not a straw man argument generally follows. I will offer one explanation for the statement I made previously, and likely will not participate in further discussion on the matter.

I was raised in the Southeastern U.S. In the culture in which I was raised, it has been an observation of mine that my Americans of African descent contemporaries have for years been serially groomed by their political party of choice to be dependent long term on the government through various government programs, etc. I observed Presidential candidate/President Trump bring this to light, thereby helping many people break free from an engrained way of thinking, to a new mindset, which offered hope and the reality, that has been there, that one could achieve what was previously thought to be reserved only for the white man. That coupled with the economy that was in place at the time, and other factors. I hope that makes my statement less puzzling for you. It may be that you’d just have to of lived here all your life making these observations for yourself to understand where I’m coming from.

Msnobody, thankyou for the reply. I live out west and have never been closer to your area than Huston Texas.
My impression is that what you are referring to has been the efforts of Regan, Clinton, Bush, Bush, and Obama. If Trump helped out that is good.

[msnobody]

I am not one much on participating in political discussion because more often than not a straw man argument generally follows. I will offer one explanation for the statement I made previously, and likely will not participate in further discussion on the matter.

I was raised in the Southeastern U.S. In the culture in which I was raised, it has been an observation of mine that my Americans of African descent contemporaries have for years been serially groomed by their political party of choice to be dependent long term on the government through various government programs, etc. I observed Presidential candidate/President Trump bring this to light, thereby helping many people break free from an engrained way of thinking, to a new mindset, which offered hope and the reality, that has been there, that one could achieve what was previously thought to be reserved only for the white man. That coupled with the economy that was in place at the time, and other factors. I hope that makes my statement less puzzling for you. It may be that you’d just have to of lived here all your life making these observations for yourself to understand where I’m coming from.

Msnobody, thankyou for the reply. I live out west and have never been closer to your area than Huston Texas.
My impression is that what you are referring to has been the efforts of Regan, Clinton, Bush, Bush, and Obama. If Trump helped out that is good.

I didn’t see what I’ve seen with Trump, with those previous administrations. Nevertheless, I’m thankful.

[huckelberry]

Kishkumen, your opening post keeps nagging at my mind even if I am ignorant of the actual substance of Eleade thought.(I am guilty of reading a wikapedia summary)0 The simple idea of a yearning for a sacred past is a basic idea which might get filled out in different ways.

We have a thread link to Dan McClellan and friends discussing a variety of Biblical subjects and puzzles. Some interesting observations but too many to treat questions in depth.

Mark 9;1 was considered."Truly I say to you there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

The question of course is ,is Jesus predicting an apocalyptic event which simply did not happen. The group was criticizing a conservative podcaster who proposed that the transfiguration which follows this passage is the actual fulfillment. The group thought that thin and Jewish expectation was at least that Romans would be expelled and righteous leaders established in Jerusalem. Of course these did not happen. My mind jumps to the view that the entire project of Jesus life teaching death and resurrection was in view and completed. Mark having the transfiguration described at this point is a pointer and clue to look further.

I am influenced here by N Wright who extensively explores the view that Jesus was doing a complete rethink of Jewish apocalyptic expectations useing the language and imagery to say and do something new. This is to create a new basis and clarification for human relationships, the beatitudes being a good example of the intention. This is an ongoing living project not a special preparation for an apocalypse.

This attaches to this thread in my mind because traditional apocalyptic sounds a lot like establishing a sacred past. Militarily and with police power sin will be punished, dirty outsiders excluded. Society will be cleansed. It is an old saw that Jew expected a military kingdom and Jesus was spiritual . Oddly enough over and over it has been Christians who have focused upon using that military power to cleanse society.

For Wright this is not just a spiritual affair but also one of ongoing human relationships here on this earth with I hope of becoming more like the kingdom of God not by political power but internal human love care and invention.

[Kishkumen]

This post was a revelation to me Reverend... stunning, saddening, yet enlightening all wrapped up together. Much to ponder, thank you much for sharing your musings and ponderings out loud here. ALWAYS welcome to do so. I enjoy them immensely.

Thanks, Philo! I appreciate it. I learn so much from you every time we interact.