It is really dumb to continue asking an open-ended question like this when I have tried numerous times to tell you I am not playing that game. Relatively decent always depends on a certain set of circumstances.I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 4:20 pmI’ll try repeating my question - what would you see as not “relatively decent” 1800’s behaviour?
Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
In a way, but ultimately, no. Not even close.Kishkumen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:19 pmThe comparison is stupid. I am not arguing that BY was a better person than Lincoln or close to as good as Lincoln. Lincoln was kept in line by the fact that he was an elected leader in a position that was well defined and limited by the Constitution and the laws. Apples to oranges comparisons like these are silly.drumdude wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:21 pmMy point was the huge burden of leading so many people seems not to have caused Lincoln to order mass murders and marry dozens of women. Lincoln could have easily gone further than merely suspending habeas corpus if he had the inclination.
Perhaps men are tested by their circumstances but not led by them, and Brigham’s character really is to blame.
All real historians know Lincoln and his innate built in sense of honesty. When he had a general store, he also did some type of postal work. Ultimately it had to close. A few years went by and one day an official showed up requesting the postal funds he had collected. A close friend was there and knew how poor Lincoln was and thought he would need to try to cover it. Lincoln left for a minute, returned with a small bag and counted out the funds to the official down to the last penny. There was no money left. His friend was surprised Lincoln had held the money, not dipping into it during extreme poverty.
This was the Kirtland Bank Scandal in reverse to the 10th degree.
“One of the important things for anybody in power is to distinguish between what you have the right to do and what is right to do." Potter Stewart, associate justice of the Supreme Court - 1958 to 1981.
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
What specific set of circumstances has led you to form the opinion that Brigham Young was “relatively decent”?Kishkumen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 5:39 pmIt is really dumb to continue asking an open-ended question like this when I have tried numerous times to tell you I am not playing that game. Relatively decent always depends on a certain set of circumstances.I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 4:20 pmI’ll try repeating my question - what would you see as not “relatively decent” 1800’s behaviour?
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
Breaking Godwin's law....he petted a dog and the trains arrived on time. Two different leaders granted solace because humanity creeped through their facade.
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
What's a decent closed-ended question in this forum. I'm really curious and have a lot to learn. I would guess temple recommend questions are closed-ended but how about here.Kishkumen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 5:39 pmIt is really dumb to continue asking an open-ended question like this when I have tried numerous times to tell you I am not playing that game. Relatively decent always depends on a certain set of circumstances.I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 4:20 pmI’ll try repeating my question - what would you see as not “relatively decent” 1800’s behaviour?
“One of the important things for anybody in power is to distinguish between what you have the right to do and what is right to do." Potter Stewart, associate justice of the Supreme Court - 1958 to 1981.
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
Only in a sentimental sense, at best.Kishkumen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 12:09 pmYou really amaze me. We think so differently that it makes communication difficult. Do you recognize a difference between intellectual conclusions and emotional resolution? Do you think it is possible to recognize something does not add up logically and still have an emotional inclination toward it? Do you grant that the two may take time to fully bring into line and may never be perfectly reconciled?Dr. Shades wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 10:39 amYou were liberated only to a certain degree? So, you thought there was a chance you were wrong about his non-prophethood?
Okay. Please share with us how a person being a prophet or not a prophet is a non-binary consideration.Yeah. I don’t know why I should have to agree with them.It means the same thing to me that it does to the Chapel Mormons. And the same thing it meant to you when you were a Mormon missionary.
After that, perhaps you can share with us how being pregnant or not pregnant is a non-binary consideration.
You didn't explain how. . . in either clear, straightforward American English or otherwise.Not all of life is a simple linear equation. In fact, much of it is not.2 + 2 either = 4 or it doesn't. Similarly, a person is either receiving revelations from God or one isn't (and is lying about it). There's no room for anything other than binary thinking on this point. If I'm wrong, please explain how. . . In clear, straightforward American English.
Hopefully you will rectify that when you explain what I asked you to explain above. Not because I'm trying to assign you homework, but because I simply can't figure out how it's possible to believe that prophethood/pregnancy is non-binary and therefore I need to be educated.
But he is still "relatively decent?"I think it is awful.What's your opinion of his Blood Atonement doctrine and practice?
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
That's actually really interesting. I actually love this because being brought up in the church I always heard the you are comparing Joseph Smith with today's rules and I would say, really? then we start learning the truth was hidden by the church with lots of surprises to follow when the internet came around.I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 4:20 pmI’ll try repeating my question - what would you see as not “relatively decent” 1800’s behaviour?Kishkumen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:43 amLOL! Relatively decent depends on the full range of behaviors at the time. For example, do you think a relatively decent person can vote for Trump? You see, I do, even though I think Trump is an awful human being and an enemy of democracy. I could never vote for Trump, but I know some people who are lovely in many ways, better than I in some ways, and yet they are voting for a person I truly abhor.
Early Mormons were on the fringe; always moving to the fringe areas so that courts couldn't take jurisdiction over their crazy behavior, courts the citizens of the State or the Country created. Today, the Church can't hide the behavior of its early leaders 1800s because it's all online. We all know that where ever Joseph Smith was there was also extra-legal scandal, and it would follow him where ever he went because he kept creating it with knucklehead decision making. Joseph Smith thought he was 1844 presidential material and Brigham Young thought so too and would go out and campaign for him. At the same time Henry Clay ran James Polk ran too. Lincoln was out campaigning for Henry Clay who had been Secretary of State, a member of the United States Senate, a member of the House of Representatives and was Speaker of the House. Clay was defeated by Polk who lived a similar life. So this is 1800's behavior and this country was very lucky to have those two during that time. But the United States Senate and House was filled with the like and they were truly great and my operational definition of truly great would be services to his family, services to his state and country and fidelity to his spouse. All avoided scandal but unfortunately it led to War. The congress previously had pushed the war back with certain agreements and compromises. When I think of Brigham Young I think he is so lucky President Grant didn't say, this is boring, I want some action, recall Sherman, Hooker, Sheridan and get my horse, we're riding west. That was also 1800s behavior.
Last edited by yellowstone123 on Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
“One of the important things for anybody in power is to distinguish between what you have the right to do and what is right to do." Potter Stewart, associate justice of the Supreme Court - 1958 to 1981.
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
All “real” historians “know”? Get over yourself. The conversation was not a comparison of the goodness of Lincoln versus Joseph Smith.yellowstone123 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:59 pmIn a way, but ultimately, no. Not even close.
All real historians know Lincoln and his innate built in sense of honesty. When he had a general store, he also did some type of postal work. Ultimately it had to close. A few years went by and one day an official showed up requesting the postal funds he had collected. A close friend was there and knew how poor Lincoln was and thought he would need to try to cover it. Lincoln left for a minute, returned with a small bag and counted out the funds to the official down to the last penny. There was no money left. His friend was surprised Lincoln had held the money, not dipping into it during extreme poverty.
This was the Kirtland Bank Scandal in reverse to the 10th degree.
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
You act like “relatively decent” is some kind of high praise. This is because nothing but fierce criticism of Brigham Young will do on the board.I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:10 pmWhat specific set of circumstances has led you to form the opinion that Brigham Young was “relatively decent”?
The set of circumstances is leader of a fugitive sect of thousands that saw a lot of violence and whose top leaders had been murdered. The sect must survive and make its way in dangerous territory shared by indigenous peoples (sometimes hostile) whose culture is quite different from theirs. Rough circumstances. I can hardly appreciate how tough it would have been to live through them.
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Re: Mormons arguing that “Mormon” is as derogatory as the N-word
That’s a very simplistic answer for a complicated set of questions. But it is your answer, and I can only say that your view and experience hardly define the full range of reasonable possibilities.
First, one has to define “prophet,” and that is itself a non-binary task in my view.Okay. Please share with us how a person being a prophet or not a prophet is a non-binary consideration.
Fatuous nonsense. Being a prophet, whatever that is, has very little in common with being pregnant.After that, perhaps you can share with us how being pregnant or not pregnant is a non-binary consideration.
That’s because you think the word prophet has a simple, straightforward definition to which everyone ascribes. I guess. The beauty of the whole thing is that we don’t ever have to agree about this topic.Hopefully you will rectify that when you explain what I asked you to explain above. Not because I'm trying to assign you homework, but because I simply can't figure out how it's possible to believe that prophethood/pregnancy is non-binary and therefore I need to be educated.
Yeah, relatively.But he is still "relatively decent?"
Blood atonement was a very bad idea. Frontier justice perverting Christianity, in my view. It is a good thing that it was not acted on more than the limited extent that it was. It is bad enough that it passed into historical memory where future nuts could use it to horrific ends.