Kishkumen wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 11:40 am
Dr. Shades wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:55 am
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. If he
claims inspiration from God, can we classify his claim as "true" or "false" based on whether he is really, truly receiving inspiration from God vs. whether he's lying about it or simply delusional?
Yeah, that is where it gets messy. Charismatic leaders of this type often defy or subvert the cultural norms of their times. It is easy to dismiss them if the standard is the status quo. It is also easy to say that a prophetic prediction did not appear to come true, or that it was about as meaningful to you as a magic eight ball. Prophets can seem to be lying or delusional, and I think that is so for very understandable reasons, but a successful one manages to inspire listeners to seek after meaning in spiritually transformative ways. That transformation could be primarily moral, or it could involve a change of lifestyle or method of seeking meaning. Some prophets are tricksters. I would put Joseph Smith in this category. The trickster prophet. People say he was a con man, but I don't buy it. Would I want to have been his close associate? No way. Would I want my daughter to spend time with him? No way.
I think our view of prophets is heavily influenced by the Old Testament. From Deuteronomy 18 (KJV):
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
And from Deuteronomy 13: (KJV)
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
So, a prophet is a person who purports to speak for God. But the God has to be Yaweh, or the prophet must be killed. And the test for a true prophet of Yaweh is that what he says in the name of the Lord comes true.
That's pretty much the notion of "prophet" that has been adopted by the COJCOLDS. Nelson purports to speak for God, so he is a prophet. The tricky part is that, in contrast to Old Testament prophets, modern LDS prophets don't prophecy much. They don't make testable predictions by Old Testament standards. That puts them in sharp contrast to Smith and Young.
I don't think "decency" was a concept that applied to Old Testament prophets. Weren't there children torn apart by a bear for making fun of a bald prophet? I suspect that the notion of evaluating the "decency" of a prophet is a modern one.
From my perspective, there are no "true" prophets, as there is no god to speak for. So I guess I have to think about the functional aspects of prophets: how do people who purport to speak for a god affect the society in which they live? So, from my perspective, Nelson is a prophet. So are Julie Rowe, Denver Snuffer and the modern prophets of the New Apostolic Reformation.