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In the midst of trying yet again to paint old Mormon leaders as "complex" (that is, to try to whitewash them and to downplay the bad things they did), Dr. Peterson has at last toppled over a decades-old Mopologetic edifice:

DCP wrote:I'm far less inclined than some are to speak of Joseph Smith and his actions as "dumb," "rotten," "very imperfect and flawed." And that's not at all because I'm disposed to "hero worship."

Was he flawed? Of course. As everyone is.

Was there an element of sexual desire in at least some of his marriages? Probably. Sexual desire exists in most marriages, I hope. It would be a very sad marriage that was completely without it.

Wow! At last we have the Chief Mopologist *admitting* that the critics' accusations about Joseph Smith being a "horndog" were correct! This is--dare I say?--a watershed moment in the history of Mopologetics. And take note of the fact that Prof. P. goes on to say "It would be a very sad marriage that was completely without [sexual desire]." You have to assume that this applies even to 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball.

I can't help but wonder: is this a new development? Did something cause the Mopologists to reverse course? Or have they believed all along that some part of Joseph Smith was lusting after all these women who eventually became his polygamous wives? It is quite shocking, too, to see that Dr. Peterson believes it would be "sad" if Jospeh *hadn't* wanted to have sex with 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball. I guess lusting after teenage girls is okay in the Mopologetic playbook?

In any case, Dr. P. uses the occasion to rehash yet another silly and nonsensical defense of Joseph Smith:

But the lack, thus far, of identifiable children of Joseph's polygamous marriages is just one of the reasons that lead me to think that the notion that they were mainly covers for wild sexual liaisons is probably false.

If Joseph were trying to cover up the fact that he was having sex with his plural wives, then don't you think he might've taken steps to avoid getting them pregnant?

Quite an interesting development here, in any case.

I wonder if Dr. Peterson could address the rumor that the late great Elvis Presley got his famous line, "I ain't nothing but a hound dog" from a copy he received of the Book of Mormon. That could help show the influence of Joseph Smith.

So, Joseph Smith lusted after Nancy Winchester? Dan? Did he lust after Nancy?

- Doc

Congratulations Dr. Peterson! This is a big step. Now, stand firm and don't relent to the pressure to backtrack when the blind believers object.

Was there an element of sexual desire in at least some of his marriages? Probably. Sexual desire exists in most marriages, I hope. It would be a very sad marriage that was completely without it.

is he actually referring to sexual desire beyond that for his legal wife?

Let me be more specific. Peterson is discussing, and defining as normal and expected, Smith's sexual desire for his (multiple!!) other illegal and immoral conquests, beyond that of his wife to whom he was legally wed, correct?

Moksha wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:36 pm

I wonder if Dr. Peterson could address the rumor that the late great Elvis Presley got his famous line, "I ain't nothing but a hound dog" from a copy he received of the Book of Mormon. That could help show the influence of Joseph Smith.

Dear me, that is definitely not what Elvis sung.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:34 pm

Dear me, that is definitely not what Elvis sung.

The word you may have been changed to I, but the preponderance is exact.

Marcus wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:32 pm

Was there an element of sexual desire in at least some of his marriages? Probably. Sexual desire exists in most marriages, I hope. It would be a very sad marriage that was completely without it.

is he actually referring to sexual desire beyond that for his legal wife?

Let me be more specific. Peterson is discussing, and defining as normal and expected, Smith's sexual desire for his (multiple!!) other illegal and immoral conquests, beyond that of his wife to whom he was legally wed, correct?

That is correct, Marcus, and in fact he reiterated his position in a recent comment:

DCP wrote:I did not say, of course, that plural marriage was wholly or principally or even largely motivated by sexual desire. I did say, though, that there was probably sexual attraction in at least some of his plural marriages. I would hope that most marriages involve sexual attraction. They would, otherwise, tend to be rather desolate and sad.

Were there exceptions in Joseph's case? Almost certainly yes, and I should have noted that fact. If I recall correctly -- I don't have Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling ready to hand in order to check it right now -- the sexual flame at the plural marriage of Joseph Smith and Martha Bates Noble was burning at pretty much room temperature, if indeed even that.. And his marriage to Helen Mar Kimball seems to have been entered into for what a cynic -- not I -- would be inclined to call "dynastic" reasons. It may never have been consummated.

So he evidently thinks that a lack of sexual relations between Joseph Smith and 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball would have been “desolate and sad.”

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:19 am

Marcus wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:32 pm

is he actually referring to sexual desire beyond that for his legal wife?

Let me be more specific. Peterson is discussing, and defining as normal and expected, Smith's sexual desire for his (multiple!!) other illegal and immoral conquests, beyond that of his wife to whom he was legally wed, correct?

That is correct, Marcus, and in fact he reiterated his position in a recent comment:

DCP wrote:I did not say, of course, that plural marriage was wholly or principally or even largely motivated by sexual desire. I did say, though, that there was probably sexual attraction in at least some of his plural marriages. I would hope that most marriages involve sexual attraction. They would, otherwise, tend to be rather desolate and sad.

Were there exceptions in Joseph's case? Almost certainly yes, and I should have noted that fact. If I recall correctly -- I don't have Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling ready to hand in order to check it right now -- the sexual flame at the plural marriage of Joseph Smith and Martha Bates Noble was burning at pretty much room temperature, if indeed even that.. And his marriage to Helen Mar Kimball seems to have been entered into for what a cynic -- not I -- would be inclined to call "dynastic" reasons. It may never have been consummated.

So he evidently thinks that a lack of sexual relations between Joseph Smith and 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball would have been “desolate and sad.”

Who was Martha Bates Noble? I’m familiar with Joseph Bates Noble and his wife’s sister, Louisa Beman, but I don’t know a Martha Bates Noble.

Wow! A staunch mopologist admits the obvious!!!!!

Next questions, DCP, the challenge: What do you think it was like for the women and young girls to be objects of the Prophet’s sexual attraction? How do you think that experience might have affected them and their lives, especially considering the social power differences between them and the Prophet. Do you think God wanted them to experience all that for the good of the restored gospel?

Use all the intelligence, self-awareness and self-reflection you can muster then return and report.

(DCP has always been pretty entertaining to me.)