I am amazed at the change.

[huckelberry]

I find myself responding to Yellowstone’s post in a way that does not fit the first thread so I will try a separate thread. I may have tried to ask this question before but perhaps failed to clarify what I was wondering about.

To be told over and over since childhood that you are a broken person and in need of divine intervention is wrong. If it leads to depression, anxiety, withdrawal from these you enjoy it's abuse. Being told someone within the LDS church such as a Bishop can give better counsel than the friends you grew up with on your street is also completely wrong.

My memory of church in the 1960s includes no memory of contacting a bishop for counseling. I rather liked the bishop but it never occurred to me to ask him for counseling of any sort. I am unaware of anybody doing such a thing and I do not remember it being suggested. Yet I hear repeatedly of people feeling obligated to talk to the bishop. When, how, and why would this change happen?

Second, I cannot imagine in an LDS context being told we or I am a broken person. In fact I remember LDS as being a bit proud of not doing that trick. Miracle of Forgiveness, could one book (oft referenced with pain) make this change or is it a symptom? Did the church perform a big reaction against the general social climate of the 60s?

Did David O'Mckay have a moderating influence on the conservative hardliners?

Whatever happened to teach true principles and let the people govern themselves?

[sock puppet]

I have observed, from the sidelines, a change in the counseling by the bishop. I hear that it is at least the go-to suggestion by LDS family and fellow members. I also understand that the LDS church conducts its own, alternative AA/OA addiction program. From what I have been able to gather, the LDS think that counseling services have become too indulgent and empathetic towards the sinner, so best to have an LDS flavored approach. Ergo, the bishops and alternate addiction groups. A friend from way back who is now an LDS bishop recently complained to me, now 3 years into being a bishop, that most of his function is providing counseling for which has no legitimate training.

I have not heard broken, but imperfect, sinner, etc. What needs fixed (via repentance) however if the implied message is not that you are broken or stained?

McKay was moderating when it came to hardliners like Joseph Fielding Smith and his son-in-law, Bruce R. McConkie. However, compared to Hugh B. Brown, McKay was a hardliner.

Teaching true principles and let the people govern themselves? It resulted in less tithe paying. So, it is downplayed today as compared to the past.

[Imwashingmypirate]

I find myself responding to Yellowstone’s post in a way that does not fit the first thread so I will try a separate thread. I may have tried to ask this question before but perhaps failed to clarify what I was wondering about.

To be told over and over since childhood that you are a broken person and in need of divine intervention is wrong. If it leads to depression, anxiety, withdrawal from these you enjoy it's abuse. Being told someone within the LDS church such as a Bishop can give better counsel than the friends you grew up with on your street is also completely wrong.

My memory of church in the 1960s includes no memory of contacting a bishop for counseling. I rather liked the bishop but it never occurred to me to ask him for counseling of any sort. I am unaware of anybody doing such a thing and I do not remember it being suggested. Yet I hear repeatedly of people feeling obligated to talk to the bishop. When, how, and why would this change happen?

Second, I cannot imagine in an LDS context being told we or I am a broken person. In fact I remember LDS as being a bit proud of not doing that trick. Miracle of Forgiveness, could one book (oft referenced with pain) make this change or is it a symptom? Did the church perform a big reaction against the general social climate of the 60s?

Did David O'Mckay have a moderating influence on the conservative hardliners?

Whatever happened to teach true principles and let the people govern themselves?

I can understand what Yellowstone is saying here. Maybe broken is a bit strong of a word. There is a sense of having to strive to be good enough even when you are innocent. As soon as you turn 8, you are now accountable for every thought and action you have and that is repeated over and over.

I thought I was a horrendous sinner. That I was so bad. I repented constantly and feared the second coming because I thought I was going to hell. I realised when I was older that I was too hard on myself and actually I was a good kid. I just didn't have anyone to compare myself to because we were isolated. I didn't know what the kids hanging on the streets were doing. So in my world I was pretty bad.

I also had the sense that I had to take everything to the bishop. There is a general essence floating around wards that the bishop is who you go to after Sunday services. Sometimes there would be a line of people waiting to go in. Bishop threatened me that he would call social services if I didn't go to church counselling. I went a couple of times but they just talked about church things.

So I guess the bishop can pass you onto a therapist if he feels the need.

[yellowstone123]

I find myself responding to Yellowstone’s post in a way that does not fit the first thread so I will try a separate thread. I may have tried to ask this question before but perhaps failed to clarify what I was wondering about.

My memory of church in the 1960s includes no memory of contacting a bishop for counseling. I rather liked the bishop but it never occurred to me to ask him for counseling of any sort. I am unaware of anybody doing such a thing and I do not remember it being suggested. Yet I hear repeatedly of people feeling obligated to talk to the bishop. When, how, and why would this change happen?

Second, I cannot imagine in an LDS context being told we or I am a broken person. In fact I remember LDS as being a bit proud of not doing that trick. Miracle of Forgiveness, could one book (oft referenced with pain) make this change or is it a symptom? Did the church perform a big reaction against the general social climate of the 60s?

Did David O'Mckay have a moderating influence on the conservative hardliners?

Whatever happened to teach true principles and let the people govern themselves?

I can understand what Yellowstone is saying here. Maybe broken is a bit strong of a word. There is a sense of having to strive to be good enough even when you are innocent. As soon as you turn 8, you are now accountable for every thought and action you have and that is repeated over and over.

I thought I was a horrendous sinner. That I was so bad. I repented constantly and feared the second coming because I thought I was going to hell. I realised when I was older that I was too hard on myself and actually I was a good kid. I just didn't have anyone to compare myself to because we were isolated. I didn't know what the kids hanging on the streets were doing. So in my world I was pretty bad.

I also had the sense that I had to take everything to the bishop. There is a general essence floating around wards that the bishop is who you go to after Sunday services. Sometimes there would be a line of people waiting to go in. Bishop threatened me that he would call social services if I didn't go to church counselling. I went a couple of times but they just talked about church things.

So I guess the bishop can pass you onto a therapist if he feels the need.

Thank you Huckleberry and Pirate: I do remember a time I was sitting on the couch in the foyer, waiting to talk with the bishop. The girl prior to me was 17 and about to get married and we were both born in 1961. I was glad for her. She came from big family and that is what she wanted: Marriage and a big family. She met a guy from Utah and was engaged, going through the temple and getting married. I kept thinking this is taking way too long and it was long. I didn't think they were discussing the trades the Dodgers just made, but they were talking and it was at least 45 to 60 minutes. Do I think any shenanigans were going on? No, I knew both of them well. But do you ever hear in church that those that who have Ph.Ds from UCLA or UC Berkley or UC San Diego in psychology, completed their 3000 hours in supervised counseling, passed their written tests and oral board, and now have the gift of discernment? Who has the gift or discernment?

Add:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/sea ... ken&page=1

And why do I need godly sorrow?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/sea ... row&page=1

I actually was the kid that was picked on by the other kids, kids that were a lot smarter and bigger than me. What did I do between age 10 and 20 that caused someone 2000 years earlier to bleed from every pore? He was half-god and half-man. Sorry, that's not my genetic code and I don't have that guy's insight.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Add:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/sea ... ken&page=1

Thank you.

And why do I need godly sorrow?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/sea ... row&page=1

I actually was the kid that was picked on by the other kids, kids that were a lot smarter and bigger than me. What did I do between age 10 and 20 that caused someone 2000 years earlier to bleed from every pore? He was half-god and half-man. Sorry, that's not my genetic code and I don't have that guy's insight.

I don't understand this. I was talking to evangelists about the garden of Gethsemane and the bleeding from every pore and they had no idea what I was talking about. I wonder how many denominations of Christianity believe in the bleeding because of the suffering in the garden of Gethsemane.

[Jersey Girl]

and why do I need godly sorrow:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/sea ... row&page=1

I actually was the kid that was picked on by the other kids, kids that were a lot smarter and bigger than I. What did I do between age 10 and 20 that caused someone 2000 years earlier to bleed from every pore. He was half-god and half-man. Sorry, that's not my genetic code and I don't have that guy's insight.

I don't understand this. I was talking to evangelists about the garden of Gethsemane and the bleeding from every pore and they had no idea what I was talking about. I wonder how many denominations of Christianity believe in the bleeding because of the suffering in the garden of Gethsemane.

Here is why the evangelists didn't know what you were talking about. From the KJV that is used by the LDS church and I was raised on.


Luke 22:44 KJV
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Here it is from the ESV which apparently is regarded as most accurate these days.

Luke 22:44 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)
And being in agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Luke 22:44 doesn't say that Jesus was sweating blood. It says he was sweating profusely...as if he were bleeding.

You want to know how many Christian denominations believe he was bleeding. I'd say none. Why? It's not Biblical.

[yellowstone123]

Thanks to all, Huckleberry, Pirate, and Jersey Girl.

I think Jesus was afraid, very afraid, of being executed via crucifixion. That's why he was praying. No one wants to die that way but that's the way it was done to certain people in that time.

I think the drops of blood were similes. The authors used "as" and "like." The church will tweak them and say it actually happened. The blood loss if bleeding from every pore would be staggering, loss of mobility would be likely, and it would be something one would not want to see. Some parents will protect their children from hearing or mentally digesting this scene. "Go play baseball or flag football. Go kick the ball around" is what you will hear.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Thanks to all, Huckleberry, Pirate, and Jersey Girl.

If true, I think Jesus was afraid, very afraid, of being executed via crucifixion. That's why he was praying. No one wants to die that way but that's the way it was done to certain people in that time.

I think the drops of blood were similes. The authors used "as" and "like." Of course the church will tweak them and say it actually happened. The blood loss if bleeding from every pore would be staggering, loss of mobility would be likely, and it would be something one would not want to see. I think GA's get a charge out of reminding people of it over and over and over. Some protective parents will protect their children from hearing or mentally digesting this scene. "Go play baseball or flag football. Go kick the ball around" is what you will hear.

We adults are told we need these things from the church because we are broken. We give them 10% of our gross pay to hear we are broken and Jesus and the church can fix it.

We are saved by grace after all we can do. I like Dan McClellan on Youtube who says we are saved by grace despite all that we try to do.

When I first heard that we were already saved from a different denomination I was shocked. It makes sense to me that an all knowing God who knows everything we are and everything we will be, already knows everything. And they say he loves us. He loves us despite all the things he knows about us that we don't know yet. So whatever choice God made in the past, He already knew the outcomes. Don't know how to find the words that I'm trying to express.

[Imwashingmypirate]

I don't understand this. I was talking to evangelists about the garden of Gethsemane and the bleeding from every pore and they had no idea what I was talking about. I wonder how many denominations of Christianity believe in the bleeding because of the suffering in the garden of Gethsemane.

Here is why the evangelists didn't know what you were talking about. From the KJV that is used by the LDS church and I was raised on.

Luke 22:44 KJV
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Here it is from the ESV which apparently is regarded as most accurate these days.

Luke 22:44 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)
And being in agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Luke 22:44 doesn't say that Jesus was sweating blood. It says he was sweating profusely...as if he were bleeding.

You want to know how many Christian denominations believe he was bleeding. I'd say none. Why? It's not Biblical.

AHH thanks Jersey Girl.

[Chap]

When I first heard that we were already saved from a different denomination I was shocked. It makes sense to me that an all knowing God who knows everything we are and everything we will be, already knows everything. And they say he loves us. He loves us despite all the things he knows about us that we don't know yet.

Well, I am pretty sure that however nasty my kids turned out to be, I would never want to condemn them to an eternity of misery. I'd just work hard to find a way to mend whatever was broken in them, so we could be happy again together. And if I was a deity with the powers of the one believed in by the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), then I'd be sure to succeed.

If I am more loving than the thing people call 'God', then to hell with him, I say!