I am amazed at the change.

[Physics Guy]

Children, especially young ones, are often selfish, impatient, and inconsiderate.

It's not really their fault that they're that way. They don't know any better. They feel their own desires and injuries strongly, and don't really understand that other people have needs and feelings as well. So I guess that's being pure, in a way. I can't blame a small child for being self-centered.

At the same time I wouldn't say that young children are good people by anything like the standards one expects of adults. In that sense, I could accept saying that humans are all sinful from birth. As the Book of Common Prayer puts it,

We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. ... We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; and we have done those things which we ought not to have done ... .

I'm only noticing now, many years since I last recited anything from the BCP, that a certain amount of following our own devices and desires could apparently be fine, according to the Prayer of Confession. The problem is that we do it too much.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Children, especially young ones, are often selfish, impatient, and inconsiderate.

It's not really their fault that they're that way. They don't know any better. They feel their own desires and injuries strongly, and don't really understand that other people have needs and feelings as well. So I guess that's being pure, in a way. I can't blame a small child for being self-centered.

At the same time I wouldn't say that young children are good people by anything like the standards one expects of adults. In that sense, I could accept saying that humans are all sinful from birth. As the Book of Common Prayer puts it,

We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. ... We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; and we have done those things which we ought not to have done ... .

I'm only noticing now, many years since I last recited anything from the BCP, that a certain amount of following our own devices and desires could apparently be fine, according to the Prayer of Confession. The problem is that we do it too much.

Well, I can't argue with this. But how much of it is the parents teaching them to be selfish? If my children see someone hurt, they are the first to go see if they are ok. If they hurt each other they immediately ask if the other is ok and then hug. From being the tiniest human, Oliver was always very caring. He has only started being more "self" in the past year or so.

If you had a child that was mentally disabled. Say mentally they were a toddler but in body they were quite a bit older, how would people judge them? We see it every day. Children with known neurodivergence have a lot more leeway at school. They aren't punished in the same way as others. There is a kid that is mean. But sometimes he is kind. This morning he came to Oliver and carried his umbrella for him. I prefer he would stay away because last year Oliver finally told people that this kid has been grabbing his privates. That has stopped now. But is a different child did that, the actions would have been different. Or so I think. We treat people who don't have capacity to understand differently because we know they aren't consciously evil. They may not intentionally think they are doing something wrong.

I believe we will judge ourselves. It is intention that makes the sin. If you accidentally hit someone with a car and they died because of limited capacity, would you be a murderer? No. You wouldn't. You wouldn't be to blame. Well you might be to blame but in the eyes of someone with understanding of the full picture, you wouldn't be. (Not you personally, just examples).

Children are impulsive at times and that is what makes them innocent. Not impossible to have an evil child but generally most children (I believe) don't intend to harm.

[yellowstone123]

Children, especially young ones, are often selfish, impatient, and inconsiderate.

It's not really their fault that they're that way. They don't know any better. They feel their own desires and injuries strongly, and don't really understand that other people have needs and feelings as well. So I guess that's being pure, in a way. I can't blame a small child for being self-centered.

At the same time I wouldn't say that young children are good people by anything like the standards one expects of adults. In that sense, I could accept saying that humans are all sinful from birth. As the Book of Common Prayer puts it,

We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. ... We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; and we have done those things which we ought not to have done ... .

I'm only noticing now, many years since I last recited anything from the BCP, that a certain amount of following our own devices and desires could apparently be fine, according to the Prayer of Confession. The problem is that we do it too much.

Physics guy, I agree in some ways but not in others. Some children are selfish, they are territorial, and can be mean to other children; others only see starlight and have an innate sense of goodness and ability to share with other children. Some are drawn to harming others while others are drawn towards helping others. I think it depends a lot on their birth code and at times the parents and their example, but not always. Chemicals that flow from actions may also be involved.

For me as a child I was too nice and helpful. My baseball coaches knew this and wanted me to be meaner and so wanted me to sign up for full contact tackle football in the off-season. It was at age 10, around 1971. I did fine until tackling drills started and then I didn’t want to participate. I’m not too good on angles but if someone is running from 3:00 to 9:00 and at the same distance one is running with the ball from 6:00 to 12:00 they are going to meet right in the middle The adults, born in the late ‘30s and early 40s loved the sound of helmets striking each other as most of those running turned towards the other person at the last moment. Water-helmets were the new thing, and they were supposed to prevent head injuries. This wasn’t me and never would be.

I was almost the tallest guy on the team but didn’t make the first cut. It was embarring to tell my friends on my street who played on the team I got cut. They just said don’t worry about it. My off-season baseball coach immediately traded me to another team. That team I was then playing for didn’t do a lot for my esteem and caused many issues. I believe those tackling drills are now called targeting and will get a player ejected from the game.

At church I also had to deal with bullies in our ward while in scouts and scout activities. But what did I do at that time to cause Christ pain, was I broken and in need of godly sorrow and repentance? I knew the bullies in the church might have caused Christ pain if the church were true which was said numerous times during the week. I didn't know. Maybe it was watching the 1962 black and white film Gypsy Rose Lee with Natalie Wood that did it. I was now 14 and in love with her.

Today, I would say, hey, you had so many tools at home that could have put the bullying to a complete halt; tools that our dad used at times on real bad guys, and you could have taken one or two of them and put the bullies in their place, on your street or at church, but that wasn't me or the code that I was born with.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Clarification: I didn't understand why people picked on me at the time but I can see it now.

[Physics Guy]

I was thinking of children younger than ten, like two to six. By ten I think most kids do have a lot of moral awareness. Some are mean and some are kind; some have lived in circumstances that make one or the other of those easier to be.

[yellowstone123]

I was thinking of children younger than ten, like two to six. By ten I think most kids do have a lot of moral awareness. Some are mean and some are kind; some have lived in circumstances that make one or the other of those easier to be.

I agree.

[Dr. Shades]

The question is never whether it was meant as humor. The question is always whether the humor is actually funny.

That IS the question.

Hence the reason I asked it.

[Imwashingmypirate]

That IS the question.

Hence the reason I asked it.

[yellowstone123]

Children, especially young ones, are often selfish, impatient, and inconsiderate.

It's not really their fault that they're that way. They don't know any better. They feel their own desires and injuries strongly, and don't really understand that other people have needs and feelings as well. So I guess that's being pure, in a way. I can't blame a small child for being self-centered.

At the same time I wouldn't say that young children are good people by anything like the standards one expects of adults. In that sense, I could accept saying that humans are all sinful from birth. As the Book of Common Prayer puts it,

I'm only noticing now, many years since I last recited anything from the BCP, that a certain amount of following our own devices and desires could apparently be fine, according to the Prayer of Confession. The problem is that we do it too much.

Physics guy, I agree in some ways but not in others. Some children are selfish, they are territorial, and can be mean to other children; others only see starlight and have an innate sense of goodness and ability to share with other children. Some are drawn to harming others while others are drawn towards helping others. I think it depends a lot on their birth code and at times the parents and their example, but not always. Chemicals that flow from actions may also be involved.

For me as a child I was too nice and helpful. My baseball coaches knew this and wanted me to be meaner and so wanted me to sign up for full contact tackle football in the off-season. It was at age 10, around 1971. I did fine until tackling drills started and then I didn’t want to participate. I’m not too good on angles but if someone is running from 3:00 to 9:00 and at the same distance one is running with the ball from 6:00 to 12:00 they are going to meet right in the middle The adults, born in the late ‘30s and early 40s loved the sound of helmets striking each other as most of those running turned towards the other person at the last moment. Water-helmets were the new thing, and they were supposed to prevent head injuries. This wasn’t me and never would be.

I was almost the tallest guy on the team but didn’t make the first cut. It was embarring to tell my friends on my street who played on the team I got cut. They just said don’t worry about it. My off-season baseball coach immediately traded me to another team. That team I was then playing for didn’t do a lot of my esteem and caused many issues. I believe those tackling drills are now called targeting and will get a player ejected from the game.

At church I also had to deal with bullies in our ward, while in scouts and scout activities. But what did I do at that time to cause Christ pain, was I broken and in need of godly sorrow and repentance. I knew the bullies in the church might have caused Christ pain if the church were true which was said numerous times during the week. I didn't know. Maybe it was watching the 1962 black and white film Gypsy Rose Lee with Natalie Wood that did it. I was now 14 and in love with her.

Today, I would say, hey, you had so many tools at home that could have put the bullying to a complete halt; tools that our dad used at times on real bad guys, and you could have taken one or two of them and put the bullies in their place, on your street or at church, but that wasn't me or the code that I was born with.

To clarify, the bullies in the church were actually victims of physical and emotional abuse from their TBM parents who can be louder than a USMC drill instructor if they are not on their way to seminary at 5:45 A.M or ready for priesthood meeting at a certain time. Being hit by a frying pan, punches, and slaps to the face, pulling the head back and forth by the hair were used to make sure they were in church, or behaved while in church.

I was shocked and scared when I saw it happen. This was the '70s. In Jr. High they still gave out swats with a paddle.

As to the one bully on our street he was a year older. There is a saying about how some people dread silence and solitude and I think this was an issue and he may have been dealing with depression if he was not active. Today he's completely the opposite and I'm sure sorry for what he did. I never saw the physical abuse or emotional abuse from non member parents in our neighborhood that I did see openly done to LDS guys.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Physics guy, I agree in some ways but not in others. Some children are selfish, they are territorial, and can be mean to other children; others only see starlight and have an innate sense of goodness and ability to share with other children. Some are drawn to harming others while others are drawn towards helping others. I think it depends a lot on their birth code and at times the parents and their example, but not always. Chemicals that flow from actions may also be involved.

For me as a child I was too nice and helpful. My baseball coaches knew this and wanted me to be meaner and so wanted me to sign up for full contact tackle football in the off-season. It was at age 10, around 1971. I did fine until tackling drills started and then I didn’t want to participate. I’m not too good on angles but if someone is running from 3:00 to 9:00 and at the same distance one is running with the ball from 6:00 to 12:00 they are going to meet right in the middle The adults, born in the late ‘30s and early 40s loved the sound of helmets striking each other as most of those running turned towards the other person at the last moment. Water-helmets were the new thing, and they were supposed to prevent head injuries. This wasn’t me and never would be.

I was almost the tallest guy on the team but didn’t make the first cut. It was embarring to tell my friends on my street who played on the team I got cut. They just said don’t worry about it. My off-season baseball coach immediately traded me to another team. That team I was then playing for didn’t do a lot of my esteem and caused many issues. I believe those tackling drills are now called targeting and will get a player ejected from the game.

At church I also had to deal with bullies in our ward, while in scouts and scout activities. But what did I do at that time to cause Christ pain, was I broken and in need of godly sorrow and repentance. I knew the bullies in the church might have caused Christ pain if the church were true which was said numerous times during the week. I didn't know. Maybe it was watching the 1962 black and white film Gypsy Rose Lee with Natalie Wood that did it. I was now 14 and in love with her.

Today, I would say, hey, you had so many tools at home that could have put the bullying to a complete halt; tools that our dad used at times on real bad guys, and you could have taken one or two of them and put the bullies in their place, on your street or at church, but that wasn't me or the code that I was born with.

To clarify, the bullies in the church were actually victims of physical and emotional abuse from their TBM parents who can be louder than a USMC drill instructor if they are not on their way to seminary at 5:45 A.M or ready for priesthood meeting at a certain time. Being hit by a frying pan, punches, and slaps to the face, pulling the head back and forth by the hair were used to make sure they were in church, or behaved while in church.

I was shocked and scared when I saw it happen. This was the '70s. In Jr. High they still gave out swats with a paddle.

As to the one bully on our street he was a year older. There is a saying about how some people dread silence and solitude and I think this was an issue and he may have been dealing with depression if he was not active. Today he's completely the opposite and I'm sure sorry for what he did. I never saw the physical abuse or emotional abuse from non member parents in our neighborhood that I did see openly done to LDS guys.

this sounds so sad. I've never seen anything like this in the church. They give an air of love and compassion. Were your parents like that?