I am amazed at the change.

[yellowstone123]

Mr. Skinner's article is interesting:

He cites hematidrosis which is a term used by the medical profession. So that means ordinary humans experience this. He also cites hypovolemia which humans also experience.

The LDS church wants you to know only one person, Jesus Christ whose father was a God and his mother a mortal could have endured this. I don't know. Maybe on a scale to 1 to 10, Jesus experienced a 10, where all other mortals would die at a 3.

Finally, “Likewise, the Joseph Smith Translation of these verses in Luke testify of their validity. Truly, Jesus bled from every pore in Gethsemane.”

Just for us, or as some say he would have done it if it was only applied to me.

https://www.ldsliving.com/how-could-jes ... od/s/91040

[huckelberry]

From the article:

President Smith's counsel links our prayers with those of the Savior's experience in Gethsemane. A "broken heart and contrite spirit" were displayed by the Savior as he worked out the infinite and eternal atonement. We must acquire the same characteristics.

LDS seem to want their own special version of the atonement. I doubt it is any better. I do not picture Jesus with a contrite heart. Perhaps the word means different things to different people.

I am sure Jesus was physically completely human and suffered the same way as did many other humans the Romans crucified. (This is not a denial of the Trinitarian understanding of Jesus which I accept.)

[sock puppet]

The last pronouncement I recall from one of the Big 15 ("prophets, seers and revelators") was April 1, 1985, when Bruce R. McConkie explained it thusly at GenConf:

We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane.

We know he sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as he drained the dregs of that bitter cup his Father had given him.

We know he suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death.

[Philo Sofee]

The last pronouncement I recall from one of the Big 15 ("prophets, seers and revelators") was April 1, 1985, when Bruce R. McConkie explained it thusly at GenConf:

We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane.

We know he sweat great gouts of blood from every pore as he drained the dregs of that bitter cup his Father had given him.

We know he suffered, both body and spirit, more than it is possible for man to suffer, except it be unto death.

He knew fundamentally nothing of the sort. He knew he had read it and believed what he read without ever checking on it. It is a later forgery into the manuscripts. Bart D. Ehrman in his Unorthodox Corruption of Scripture demonstrates this is a much later addition to the scripture kind of like Mark's ending. It didn't happen. As emotional, as fulfilling spiritually (?!) as it is to imagine this invented scenario, it didn't happen. At least not as depicted in the New Testament.

[huckelberry]

Thanks to all, Huckleberry, Pirate, and Jersey Girl.

I think Jesus was afraid, very afraid, of being executed via crucifixion. That's why he was praying. No one wants to die that way but that's the way it was done to certain people in that time.

I think the drops of blood were similes. The authors used "as" and "like." The church will tweak them and say it actually happened. The blood loss if bleeding from every pore would be staggering, loss of mobility would be likely, and it would be something one would not want to see. Some parents will protect their children from hearing or mentally digesting this scene. "Go play baseball or flag football. Go kick the ball around" is what you will hear.

Yellowstone, I think these comments of yours make sense.

I remember a comment, by perhaps both you and Imwashingmypirate about not understanding what you did that was so terrible as to need all that suffering by Jesus. I feel a sense of puzzlement as to how that could make sense. I think the idea that there is a certain amount of suffering needed to pay for all the sins in the world is a poor understanding of the atonement. Jesus suffered the consequence of human sin, death, and people projecting condemnation on him. He lived on and arose from the dead so that through his divinity we can share new life received from him.

[Moksha]

Progressive Mormons will point out that Jesus took a nice warm shower after that bleeding from every pore scene, put on some body spray, and changed into some fresh clothes. Why? Because Jews find blood abhorrent and being drenched in blood was so Philistine. They would look down on it like TBMs look down on Democrats.***

Mormons know these things because they are true knowers.

*** Yes, Shades. That was meant as humor.

[Dr. Shades]

*** Yes, Shades. That was meant as humor.

The question is never whether it was meant as humor. The question is always whether the humor is actually funny.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Thanks to all, Huckleberry, Pirate, and Jersey Girl.

I think Jesus was afraid, very afraid, of being executed via crucifixion. That's why he was praying. No one wants to die that way but that's the way it was done to certain people in that time.

I think the drops of blood were similes. The authors used "as" and "like." The church will tweak them and say it actually happened. The blood loss if bleeding from every pore would be staggering, loss of mobility would be likely, and it would be something one would not want to see. Some parents will protect their children from hearing or mentally digesting this scene. "Go play baseball or flag football. Go kick the ball around" is what you will hear.

Yellowstone, I think these comments of yours make sense.

I remember a comment, by perhaps both you and Imwashingmypirate about not understanding what you did that was so terrible as to need all that suffering by Jesus. I feel a sense of puzzlement as to how that could make sense. I think the idea that there is a certain amount of suffering needed to pay for all the sins in the world is a poor understanding of the atonement. Jesus suffered the consequence of human sin, death, and people projecting condemnation on him. He lived on and arose from the dead so that through his divinity we can share new life received from him.

Not sure I used those words. I'll need to look back through what I said. I know that as a child I felt like I was a bad person. Whether that be from church or from the unusual dynamic I lived in. (Dishes were smashed if one plate had a single speck in them when we did chores, hit with a shoe for laughing, plate smashed over my head because I ate melted cheese with a spoon, things thrown for breathing too loud). But I do know that I was too hard on myself. I realised when I was older that I was a pretty good kid. I was quiet and sat in a corner. Didn't argue with anything. Didn't eat cheese with a spoon again lol.

I can comprehend that jesus could atone for others and for things I've done. I don't think I had the thought that why did jesus suffer for me because my understanding was never that he just suffered for me. My understanding was that he suffered for everyone that had been and yet to come.

My confusion is that, did that suffering happen in the garden of Gethsemane or did it happen on the cross? Different denominations teach different things. The evangelists don't appear to believe that it was his suffering that saved us.

I can empathise and understand Yellowstone's perspective and what he was saying. I do feel that there was a lot of emphasis from being young on not being good enough.

[Imwashingmypirate]

Thanks to all, Huckleberry, Pirate, and Jersey Girl.

I think Jesus was afraid, very afraid, of being executed via crucifixion. That's why he was praying. No one wants to die that way but that's the way it was done to certain people in that time.

I think the drops of blood were similes. The authors used "as" and "like." The church will tweak them and say it actually happened. The blood loss if bleeding from every pore would be staggering, loss of mobility would be likely, and it would be something one would not want to see. Some parents will protect their children from hearing or mentally digesting this scene. "Go play baseball or flag football. Go kick the ball around" is what you will hear.

Yellowstone, I think these comments of yours make sense.

I remember a comment, by perhaps both you and Imwashingmypirate about not understanding what you did that was so terrible as to need all that suffering by Jesus. I feel a sense of puzzlement as to how that could make sense. I think the idea that there is a certain amount of suffering needed to pay for all the sins in the world is a poor understanding of the atonement. Jesus suffered the consequence of human sin, death, and people projecting condemnation on him. He lived on and arose from the dead so that through his divinity we can share new life received from him.

I don't like the notion that children have sinned just by existing. Children are pure.

[Tator]

*** Yes, Shades. That was meant as humor.

The question is never whether it was meant as humor. The question is always whether the humor is actually funny.

That IS the question.