You are correct, as far as I know, unless you count peer-pressure, or rather authority-pressure. I personally heard it deployed in a priesthood meeting when someone resisted a service project that the Elder's Quorum president wanted everyone in the meeting to be involved with. One brother barked that he didn't want to cough up the personal resource that was being asked of everyone. (I don't remember if it was cash or time.) I would bet it's likely that "what about your temple covenants?" is not a rare question when someone needs to be brought in line.
So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
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Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
Wow, that's horrible. I've never witnessed these things but I believe it.bill4long wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 1:52 pmYou are correct, as far as I know, unless you count peer-pressure, or rather authority-pressure. I personally heard it deployed in a priesthood meeting when someone resisted a service project that the Elder's Quorum president wanted everyone in the meeting to be involved with. One brother barked that he didn't want to cough up the personal resource that was being asked of everyone. (I don't remember if it was cash or time.) I would bet it's likely that "what about your temple covenants?" is not a rare question when someone needs to be brought in line.
Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
That is understandable. I would certainly not want people to be miserable or violate their own conscience, but I see nothing wrong with people participating in a Church for social reasons.Dwight wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 11:58 amIt's difficult to say cause circumstances would be so wildly different, but I often think that if I lived in Utah still that I very well could have ended up as a country club Mormon. I like to think I would have stopped attending completely, but I could also see doing enough to also have a temple recommend so I could attend weddings in the temple and such.
“The past no longer belongs only to those who once lived it; the past belongs to those who claim it, and are willing to explore it, and to infuse it with meaning for those alive today.”—Margaret Atwood
Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
Not exactly. I don’t see a voluntary association centering on faith as a fraud. Furthermore, I am not in the business of reading Joseph Smith’s mind. Did Smith intend to defraud people by starting his church? I don’t believe so. I understand why some people do think so, but I see ample room for disagreement on that point. That said, I would agree that the generations of honest people who have done good through their participation in the LDS community could be said to have legitimized and validated it. To say that every outcome ought to be judged by the intentions of the initial actor who initiated the series of events leading to it would be crazy. We have all seen good things emerge from even the worst situations.
“The past no longer belongs only to those who once lived it; the past belongs to those who claim it, and are willing to explore it, and to infuse it with meaning for those alive today.”—Margaret Atwood
Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
Peer pressure operates everywhere, and there are always zealots who are happy to apply it in churches or activist groups, for that matter.bill4long wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 1:52 pmYou are correct, as far as I know, unless you count peer-pressure, or rather authority-pressure. I personally heard it deployed in a priesthood meeting when someone resisted a service project that the Elder's Quorum president wanted everyone in the meeting to be involved with. One brother barked that he didn't want to cough up the personal resource that was being asked of everyone. (I don't remember if it was cash or time.) I would bet it's likely that "what about your temple covenants?" is not a rare question when someone needs to be brought in line.
“The past no longer belongs only to those who once lived it; the past belongs to those who claim it, and are willing to explore it, and to infuse it with meaning for those alive today.”—Margaret Atwood
Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
I think there is a meaning of the word fraud that can be fairly applied to the COJCOLDS: "one that is not what it seems or is represented to be." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud Used that way, I don't think it requires that anyone have an intent to deceive. The thread title could be reworded as: "So we know that the 'church' it not what it is represented to be, where does that leave us" without changing the meaning of the question asked.Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:00 pmNot exactly. I don’t see a voluntary association centering on faith as a fraud. Furthermore, I am not in the business of reading Joseph Smith’s mind. Did Smith intend to defraud people by starting his church? I don’t believe so. I understand why some people do think so, but I see ample room for disagreement on that point. That said, I would agree that the generations of honest people who have done good through their participation in the LDS community could be said to have legitimized and validated it. To say that every outcome ought to be judged by the intentions of the initial actor who initiated the series of events leading to it would be crazy. We have all seen good things emerge from even the worst situations.
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When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
Not a fraud if strict obedience to Church leaders gets you into the highest echelons of Heaven and enables you to become a God.
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Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
So a proven con-man and deceiver who scammed people out of their money by looking at a rock in a hat claiming he could see buried treasure in the bowels of the earth then uses the same process to dictate a 500 page novel with no gold plates used, yet, it's 'divine'???Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:00 pmNot exactly. I don’t see a voluntary association centering on faith as a fraud. Furthermore, I am not in the business of reading Joseph Smith’s mind. Did Smith intend to defraud people by starting his church? I don’t believe so. I understand why some people do think so, but I see ample room for disagreement on that point. That said, I would agree that the generations of honest people who have done good through their participation in the LDS community could be said to have legitimized and validated it. To say that every outcome ought to be judged by the intentions of the initial actor who initiated the series of events leading to it would be crazy. We have all seen good things emerge from even the worst situations.
Last edited by BeNotDeceived on Thu May 09, 2024 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
I think it is more accurate for most ex-LDS people to say, “I now see that the LDS Church is not what I believed it to be, so where does that leave me?” There is a huge difference in perspective that separates one side of conversion from another. Conversion, in my view, changes prior viewpoints so profoundly that it is difficult for the person who has undergone conversion to judge their former perspective accurately or fairly.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:32 pmI think there is a meaning of the word fraud that can be fairly applied to the COJCOLDS: "one that is not what it seems or is represented to be." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud Used that way, I don't think it requires that anyone have an intent to deceive. The thread title could be reworded as: "So we know that the 'church' it not what it is represented to be, where does that leave us" without changing the meaning of the question asked.
I have seen this kind of thing in the unraveling of a marriage (not mine, thankfully). The one partner who was once loved and appreciated in many ways becomes a different person in the eyes of the disillusioned partner. The former view of a decent partner is sometimes reframed as a lie, a deception, or a fraud by the person who is leaving the relationship. Usually, the truth is a lot more complicated. The former view may have been too forgiving, the new view may be overly critical. A crucial difference bringing a person from one view to the other is their own transformed perspective. Choice is a component of the process.
Maybe it was unhealthy for the person to be so forgiving of their partner’s faults. Perhaps it is healthier for them to be more critical now. Or, maybe they are being overly critical as a psychological mechanism to enable them to pull away from a part of their lives they were deeply embedded in. Maybe their former partner wasn’t the terrible person they make them out to be after all. One thing that is certain is that the departing partner’s view of their ex has changed irrevocably in ways that facilitate separation. We should take all of these narratives with a grain of salt, while wishing the best for the person who has decided to make this profound personal change.
“The past no longer belongs only to those who once lived it; the past belongs to those who claim it, and are willing to explore it, and to infuse it with meaning for those alive today.”—Margaret Atwood
Re: So we know the 'church' is a fraud, where does that leave...
If that is what it all is to you, then being ex-LDS or non-LDS is surely the right place for you to be.BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 8:08 pmSo a proven con-man and deceiver who scammed people out of their money by looking at a rock in a hat claiming he could see buried treasure in the bowels of the earth then uses the same process to dictate a 500 page novel with no gold plates used, yet, it's 'divine'???
“The past no longer belongs only to those who once lived it; the past belongs to those who claim it, and are willing to explore it, and to infuse it with meaning for those alive today.”—Margaret Atwood