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MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Wed May 29, 2024 6:28 pm
by sock puppet
MG 2.0, you are an active LDS, as I understand it. And here (if not also other places), you defend the LDS church.
Is your allegiance to the LDS church based on:
a) Empirically observed data + some logic/reason + faith?
b) Faith + some logic/reason, but not empirically observed data?
b) Faith alone?
For the definition of faith, keep in mind Alma 32:21: “If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.”
If your answer involves "some logic/reason", please identify your premises and assumptions.
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Wed May 29, 2024 11:57 pm
by MG 2.0
It’s of course a combination of things. Ultimately faith. There is a lot of other stuff in front and along with it. At its core I believe that there is a God that oversees all. Everything else spins off of that. If God, then purpose, then plan, then implementation of plan. There should be some evidence. The most important being the world and how it came into being. With life as we know it! Chance or created? Fine tuning points in a direction of something other than chance. Logic tells me that there is purpose behind and along with everything that happens in our world and in the known universe. Why is there something rather than nothing? The fallen world concept is verified over and over again throughout history. Opposition in all things presents opportunities to grow and progress. Chance? My faith and hope tell me no.
That’s the short version.
Decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits. It just makes sense to me over anything else out there insofar as the message that God speaks today through prophets and that mankind is redeemed from the fall through the merits/worthiness of a Savior.
I haven’t been overly impressed with man’s search for meaning over eons of time. A lot of good stuff, but in the main mainly leaving out a satisfying definition of God and His purposes for all mankind.
Mormonism does that pretty well.
Your mileage may vary.
Regards,
MG
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Thu May 30, 2024 7:15 pm
by Everybody Wang Chung
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:57 pm
Decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits. It just makes sense to me over anything else out there insofar as the message that God speaks today through prophets and that mankind is redeemed from the fall through the merits/worthiness of a Savior.
Regards,
MG
MG,
What other belief systems have you spent "decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service and family, fruits?"
Just a guess, but out of the thousands of other belief systems out there, you haven't done the above with any single one of them. Let me know if I'm mistaken and what other belief systems have you done the above with.
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Thu May 30, 2024 8:38 pm
by sock puppet
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:57 pm
It’s of course a combination of things. Ultimately faith. There is a lot of other stuff in front and along with it. At its core I believe that there is a God that oversees all. Everything else spins off of that. If God, then purpose, then plan, then implementation of plan. There should be some evidence. The most important being the world and how it came into being. With life as we know it! Chance or created? Fine tuning points in a direction of something other than chance. Logic tells me that there is purpose behind and along with everything that happens in our world and in the known universe. Why is there something rather than nothing? The fallen world concept is verified over and over again throughout history. Opposition in all things presents opportunities to grow and progress. Chance? My faith and hope tell me no.
That’s the short version.
Decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits. It just makes sense to me over anything else out there insofar as the message that God speaks today through prophets and that mankind is redeemed from the fall through the merits/worthiness of a Savior.
I haven’t been overly impressed with man’s search for meaning over eons of time. A lot of good stuff, but in the main mainly leaving out a satisfying definition of God and His purposes for all mankind.
Mormonism does that pretty well.
Your mileage may vary.
Regards,
MG
I had two decades and 9 months of "experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits" as LDS. I assume your decades stretch longer, and of course each of those 7 categories you mention would vary between you and me.
I don't buy into any "fall" from which I or anyone else needs to be redeemed.
Why must there be any meaning to life? The Bing Bang Theory and evolution provide a much simpler (and thus more likely) explanation of creation and how we came to be than all the convolutions of a higher being, which for Mormon-style includes god ancestry stretching back for eons, preexistence, etc.--each of which prompts more questions than it answers. Try this brain-twister since religion is so hung up on creation: how did the first god come into existence?
Why must there be a purpose? Do you think that every time there is a car accident, someone had to be at fault (i.e., intended it or could have reasonably foreseen the accident given how he was driving or what he was doing at the time)? Or do you admit that sometimes, it's just that "crap happens"?
The most interesting sentence you give is "Logic tells me that there is purpose behind and along with everything that happens in our world and in the known universe." How so? With lots of things, 'crap just happens' as a result of chemical and physical processes that we observe elsewhere happening in the universe.
First runner up prize, however, is your admission that it is "Ultimately faith." Why converse with us of no LDS faith? Do you think if you keep pounding away, it will cause faith in us? Did someone else pound on you until you had 'faith'? Or was it a sole, solitary experience?
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Thu May 30, 2024 8:49 pm
by bill4long
Everybody Wang Chung wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 7:15 pm
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:57 pm
Decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits. It just makes sense to me over anything else out there insofar as the message that God speaks today through prophets and that mankind is redeemed from the fall through the merits/worthiness of a Savior.
Regards,
MG
MG,
What other belief systems have you spent "decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service and family, fruits?"
Just a guess, but out of the thousands of other belief systems out there, you haven't done the above with any single one of them. Let me know if I'm mistaken and what other belief systems have you done the above with.
At the end of the day, does it matter? Let him/her/it believe whatever. As John Lennon sang, "whatever gets you through your life, is alright, alright." I think Mormonism is batsh*t crazy, but it seems to work for some people, just like the rest of the religious/philosophical/scientism/atheism/whatever that people embrace to get something to hold on to while they buzz through this crazy place.
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Thu May 30, 2024 9:41 pm
by MG 2.0
Everybody Wang Chung wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 7:15 pm
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:57 pm
Decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits. It just makes sense to me over anything else out there insofar as the message that God speaks today through prophets and that mankind is redeemed from the fall through the merits/worthiness of a Savior.
Regards,
MG
MG,
What other belief systems have you spent "decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service and family, fruits?"
Just a guess, but out of the thousands of other belief systems out there, you haven't done the above with any single one of them. Let me know if I'm mistaken and what other belief systems have you done the above with.
You make a good point.
My only ‘hands on experience’ has been as a member of the LDS Church. The only thing I can say that might give at least some ‘street creds’ to my experience is that I’ve spent a good deal of time for many years paying attention, reading, and thinking a lot about other belief systems and worldviews. I realize the fact that since I’ve been a member of one religion all my life that this may, in your mind, forfeit my credibility and ability to determine that the CofJCofLDS rises to the top of the ranks in regards to truth claims, merit, doctrine, and all comprehensive message for humanity and our relationship to deity.
You need to remember, however, that I am speaking only for myself and my position in regards to what I have determined as being true.
I would expect, after having the opportunity to interact with you on this board, that it seems as if your decades(?) worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits, has led you to a different place.
I hope you are in a good place. I believe I am.
Regards,
MG
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Thu May 30, 2024 9:50 pm
by MG 2.0
sock puppet wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 8:38 pm
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 11:57 pm
It’s of course a combination of things. Ultimately faith. There is a lot of other stuff in front and along with it. At its core I believe that there is a God that oversees all. Everything else spins off of that. If God, then purpose, then plan, then implementation of plan. There should be some evidence. The most important being the world and how it came into being. With life as we know it! Chance or created? Fine tuning points in a direction of something other than chance. Logic tells me that there is purpose behind and along with everything that happens in our world and in the known universe. Why is there something rather than nothing? The fallen world concept is verified over and over again throughout history. Opposition in all things presents opportunities to grow and progress. Chance? My faith and hope tell me no.
That’s the short version.
Decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits. It just makes sense to me over anything else out there insofar as the message that God speaks today through prophets and that mankind is redeemed from the fall through the merits/worthiness of a Savior.
I haven’t been overly impressed with man’s search for meaning over eons of time. A lot of good stuff, but in the main mainly leaving out a satisfying definition of God and His purposes for all mankind.
Mormonism does that pretty well.
Your mileage may vary.
Regards,
MG
I had two decades and 9 months of "experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service, family, fruits" as LDS. I assume your decades stretch longer, and of course each of those 7 categories you mention would vary between you and me.
I don't buy into any "fall" from which I or anyone else needs to be redeemed.
Why must there be any meaning to life? The Bing Bang Theory and evolution provide a much simpler (and thus more likely) explanation of creation and how we came to be than all the convolutions of a higher being, which for Mormon-style includes god ancestry stretching back for eons, preexistence, etc.--each of which prompts more questions than it answers. Try this brain-twister since religion is so hung up on creation: how did the first god come into existence?
Why must there be a purpose? Do you think that every time there is a car accident, someone had to be at fault (i.e., intended it or could have reasonably foreseen the accident given how he was driving or what he was doing at the time)? Or do you admit that sometimes, it's just that "crap happens"?
The most interesting sentence you give is "Logic tells me that there is purpose behind and along with everything that happens in our world and in the known universe." How so? With lots of things, 'crap just happens' as a result of chemical and physical processes that we observe elsewhere happening in the universe.
First runner up prize, however, is your admission that it is "Ultimately faith." Why converse with us of no LDS faith? Do you think if you keep pounding away, it will cause faith in us? Did someone else pound on you until you had 'faith'? Or was it a sole, solitary experience?
Thank you for sharing. It seems as though you have some unanswered questions or seemingly think that the answers the LDS Church offers aren’t ‘up to snuff’ in answering your questions.
As to your assertion that ‘crap happens’, indeed it does.
It might be well that this board is also for chapel Mormons and internet Mormons. Both of who might, at times, and naturally, butt up against the other members of the board who may fall in some other category.
That gives an opportunity to learn from and appreciate each other. There needs to be more of that.
Regards,
MG
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Thu May 30, 2024 9:53 pm
by MG 2.0
bill4long wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 8:49 pm
Everybody Wang Chung wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 7:15 pm
MG,
What other belief systems have you spent "decades worth of experience, analysis, patience, obedience, service and family, fruits?"
Just a guess, but out of the thousands of other belief systems out there, you haven't done the above with any single one of them. Let me know if I'm mistaken and what other belief systems have you done the above with.
At the end of the day, does it matter?
I do think that it becomes a matter of choice. Different strokes for different folks.
Regards,
MG
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 5:15 pm
by MG 2.0
sock puppet wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 6:28 pm
MG 2.0, you are an active LDS, as I understand it. And here (if not also other places), you defend the LDS church.
Is your allegiance to the LDS church based on:
a) Empirically observed data + some logic/reason + faith?
b) Faith + some logic/reason, but not empirically observed data?
b) Faith alone?
For the definition of faith, keep in mind Alma 32:21: “If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.”
If your answer involves "some logic/reason", please identify your premises and assumptions.
sock puppet, you have an allegiance to your ‘truth’. Is it based on anything other than empirical truth and what you determine to be logic/reason?
Regards,
MG
Re: MG 2.0: On what is your LDS allegiance based?
Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 9:24 pm
by sock puppet
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2024 5:15 pm
sock puppet wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2024 6:28 pm
MG 2.0, you are an active LDS, as I understand it. And here (if not also other places), you defend the LDS church.
Is your allegiance to the LDS church based on:
a) Empirically observed data + some logic/reason + faith?
b) Faith + some logic/reason, but not empirically observed data?
b) Faith alone?
For the definition of faith, keep in mind Alma 32:21: “If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.”
If your answer involves "some logic/reason", please identify your premises and assumptions.
sock puppet, you have an allegiance to your ‘truth’. Is it based on anything other than empirical truth and what you determine to be logic/reason?
Regards,
MG
If I might, I would rephrase that mine is not an allegiance to truth, but a striving for ever better accuracy. As a human, I need to be ever cognizant of and vigilant against biases and making assumptions. Truth, I find to be a nebulous concept. I think accuracy is, well, more 'accurate' of what it is that I strive for. I try my darnedest to eschew conclusions, and 'understandings.' I recognize that our minds try to make sense of the world/universe and will fill in gaps where we have no data, to make a holistic concept in our minds. Think, cognitive consonance. I try to be cognizant of those gaps and how my mind wants to interstitially fill them. It is like a game of whack-a-mole, especially when I contemplate a topic relatively new to me.
There are situations that I bring trust into. Dealing with new people, until they might prove to me their untrustworthiness. That is usually by getting glimpses at their otherwise hidden agendas. Or, as frequently, it is when I realize their certitude if not chicanery. I trust someone much more before they might chime in with, 'trust me' about something. So I use and rely on skepticism when given a reason for it.
