DiscussMormonism.com

“DCP” wrote: Sanctuaries such as the still relatively new Rome Italy Temple exist in order to ensure that the scenario envisioned by Dante in his “Inferno,” wherein good and even great people are barred from heaven by the mere fact that they (inescapably) lacked Christian baptism, does not in fact occur.

It’s rare that you see a Mormon come out and say this so directly. Typically they will go on about how wonderful it is, beautiful and edifying, it’s about linking families together.

Here Dan puts it in black and white. The line between eternal damnation and salvation is a bunch of children dunking themselves in a 10 million dollar bathtub. Repeating names of people who may or may not have ever existed.

There is a completely arbitrary rule that must be satisfied by this Mormon baptism ritual. Keep in mind that there are endless ways you could imagine this “problem” being solved differently. Baptism in the afterlife, for example. Or God sending someone down to save everyone with a perfect vicarious sacrifice. How about the words “I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for everyone who is dead, amen.”

It’s just silly. So, so incredibly silly.

Religion offers solutions to problems it creates. Smith discovered that by offering the keys and passwords for a supersecret clubhouse to his gullible followers, he could control them. It worked 200 years ago and is still working today.

Temple ordinances are need because of the LDS conceived-limitations on God's omniscience. He just can't quite get that people might be 'true of heart' unless he sees them (or someone for them) get wet.

sock puppet wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 9:30 pm

Temple ordinances are need because of the LDS conceived-limitations on God's omniscience. He just can't quite get that people might be 'true of heart' unless he sees them (or someone for them) get wet.

Then someone has to go through a 90-180 minutes presentation for the dead person, as I have done many times, repeating "names" and "keys", and demonstrating "tokens", so that the dead person might learn how to pass by the angels who guard the way to the celestial kingdom.

Is it a problem of any sort that I, and many others, now non-believers, still remember these keys & tokens?

Edit: clarify

sock puppet wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 9:30 pm

Temple ordinances are need because of the LDS conceived-limitations on God's omniscience. He just can't quite get that people might be 'true of heart' unless he sees them (or someone for them) get wet.

Ordinances are vehicles by which covenants are made with God to be ‘true of heart’. God is all powerful but He will not step on someone’s agency to choose.

Getting “wet” as you put it is an ordinance in which covenants and commitments are made with God to follow Jesus Christ.

What does ‘true of heart’ mean to you?

I think there are various ways that we might look at ‘true of heart’ as people worldwide make certain commitments to others, or to God.

Members of the LDS Church might take it up a notch, but I think our view is that serious commitment is only amplified through a visible and tangible ordinance. And if one truly believes that the ordinance is ordained by God, that’s icing on the cake.

The scripture comes to mind that whenever we receive a blessing from God it is because we obey the law upon which that blessing is predicated.

We may differ in whether or not we believe the temple ordinances are simply artificial. Or silly.

Regards,
MG

Has anyone ever come across a reasonable-sounding explanation of why it has been OK, over the decades, to remove parts from the preparatory and endowment ceremonies?

If certain actions, like moving a piece of clothing from one side of the body to the other, is not required today, why was it ever required?

malkie wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 9:35 pm

Is it a problem of any sort that I, and many others, now non-believers, still remember these keys & tokens?

I guess not since you no longer have to slit your throat upon revealing them to others.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 11:00 pm

malkie wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 9:35 pm

Is it a problem of any sort that I, and many others, now non-believers, still remember these keys & tokens?

I guess not since you no longer have to slit your throat upon revealing them to others.

Yes, I do! That's the promise I made in 1974. Kids today have it altogether too easy

Heavenly bureaucracy at it's finest.

So, the act of baptism of a live individual is perhaps one of two things; (1) The verbal, mental commitment, contract between the person and the God. (2) An actual physical alteration of particles of the person's body/spirit body.

Why would one need to dunk a live guy in proxy for a dead guy to affect/effect the dead guy's mental commitment? How could dunking a live guy in proxy for a dead guy alter a dead guy's more fine body particles?

malkie wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2024 11:04 pm

Kids today have it altogether too easy

Kids today have no concept of walking ten miles through the snow to go to school or bizarre cultish rites. They could not even fathom the LDS hairshirts of the 1920s to 40s, but they still have the nude Temple clogging to look forward to.

At least they do not have to lift hot metal caldrons with their forearms leaving indelible dragon scars.