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There are two competing secular theories about the plates - either they existed only in a "spiritual eye sense" that is, not at all. Or alternatively, that Joseph made some sort of prop.

Taking the prop theory to be true, what would Joseph have done with it once he told everyone they were vacuumed back up to heaven? If they were metal, would have melted them down to hide the evidence? Buried them?

Burial is an intriguing scenario, as they could still potentially be found today. What would the implications be for the Mormon religion if Joseph Smith's prop was found in upstate New York?

I think he may have tossed them in a lake or river. I think they were so poorly made it would be indistinguishable from metal garbage. But there is hope. Look what they found here: https://abcnews-go-com.cdn.ampproject.o ... &cap=swipe were out of luck if they were made of lead. I doubt it because lead wouldn't rustle.

I think that by far the more interesting question is "What did Joseph do with the plates, if they were not a prop, but really existed?"

• What's the timeline on the plates?
• When did they appear?
• How and when did people see them?
• How would the official witnesses be the only people who caught a glimpse of them?
• Where were they kept?
• Who sneaked a peak at them?
• When did they disappear?
• Exactly when and why did the angel take them?
• Was this taking back of the plates a kind of revelation event or as a thief in the night?
• If they were taken, why was the translation allowed to continue?
• Was all of this reported at the time it happened, or did explanations come later?
• Did people buy the explanation that the plates were taken, but the translation of the plates (that weren't even there) would continue nevertheless?
• If the plates were taken, but the translation happened anyway, how was this a punishment?

This whole story always seemed a bit weird and sketchy to me, even as a believer.

Morley asks great questions, here's one more:

What constitutes a prop? I recall grindael telling the story about a greenish brick being used one time, in a failed attempt to convince someone it was plates.

So, back to the question of a prop. A cloth held strategically? A brick under the cloth? Anything with a square or rectangular shape? A really good narration while pretending to hold a hidden thing?

It would be very easy to hide in plain sight anything that was used to simulate such a prop. No disposal even necessary.

Marcus wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 04, 2024 10:41 pm

Morley asks great questions, here's one more:

What constitutes a prop? I recall grindael telling the story about a greenish brick being used one time, in a failed attempt to convince someone it was plates.

So, back to the question of a prop. A cloth held strategically? A brick under the cloth? Anything with a square or rectangular shape? A really good narration while pretending to hold a hidden thing?

It would be very easy to hide in plain sight anything that was used to simulate such a prop. No disposal even necessary.

There’s evidence that Joseph was caught out trying to trick someone into believing he had plates, but it was just a greenish brick?

I Have Questions wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:34 am

There’s evidence that Joseph was caught out trying to trick someone into believing he had plates, but it was just a greenish brick?

The version of the story I saw came from this passage in a 19th-century book, courtesy of one of Grindael's long posts.

'if'?

LOL

Going down the same path as Marcus, I think there were multiple props depending on the occasion, even if a set of plates were built, I highly doubt it was one set use from beginning to end. I would think a set of plates would be built later down the road once the legend got going. It’s very possible for the plate story to fail, and Joseph Smith to sweep them under the rug and look for the next angle.

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 05, 2024 3:09 pm

Going down the same path as Marcus, I think there were multiple props depending on the occasion, even if a set of plates were built, I highly doubt it was one set use from beginning to end. I would think a set of plates would be built later down the road once the legend got going. It’s very possible for the plate story to fail, and Joseph Smith to sweep them under the rug and look for the next angle.

Yes, I doubt that there was one prop. One of the props may have been copper plates. Another may have been glass windowpanes. Both of these were easily disposed of or put to other uses. Sometimes it may have been a brick. Other times it may have been a box filled with sand, grain, or dirt. Joseph could always conjure up a story to explain why the object that was supposed to be the plates was not. Remember the story of old man Moroni with a sack over his shoulder, appearing as a regular traveler on the road. Had you given him a copper piece, he would have opened the sack and shown you the plates, so claimed Joseph. If only someone had thought to do so when the opportunity presented itself, right? Easy for Joseph to say after the moment had passed.

Those are interesting options. If our friend were shown the box of sand, would he have the faith to say that he saw plates of gold?

Transfigured, sand becomes glass, and within glass may all things be seen past, present and future. That would include the plates.