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Dan Peterson writing in Patheos his admiration of Bach and Bach's religious beliefs. Why do some nonbelievers even like Bach? Growing up a Lutheran, Bach was a regular on reformation Sunday in October a singing of Ein feste burg. Bach's cantatas were something the school choir sang. No Lutheran church was without an organ. There was the coffee cantata and Fifty florins seems a lot. I even have a nephew who plays in the Oregon Bach Society. I was given an LP of Albert Sweitzer playing Bach's organ works. I read a book recently on Introverts in the Church and that their taste in worship was more the sacramental style. Perhaps because of numbers and music I never found Pentecostal worship to my liking. However why deconstructing now I still like Bach. Sometimes I hear a piece of music on the radio, unaware of what the announcer mentioned as the author; I feel it is Bach and I end up being right. Interesting how Bach and Lewis have common events in their lives. Both lost their parent figure, both at the beginning had awful school experiences and failures, Lewis got a tutor, while Bach realized he had to study hard if he was to survive. Bach lost his first wife and a number of children while Lewis lost his wife. What I notice is in the membership of, say, the Netherlands Bach Society there are often a number of Asian performers. I read that Japanese liked Bach as there was something mathematical about his music. Some Japanese will fork out the 600 to attend a performance of St. Matthew's Passion. I even see a heavy heavy metal band playing his Toccata & Fugue in Dm, by Sinfonity.

It's a big testament to Christianity that Bach chose to work within the official state religion.

But it is possible to show that religion did poison everything, including music, and that Bach got very lucky. From a Christian writer:

https://sharperiron.org/article/how-bac ... vils-music

One dissonant interval the church rejected was the tritone. The tritone, an interval made from three whole steps, sounds very dissonant. In fact, this interval had a nickname that is translated “the Devil in music.” It was forbidden in church music for centuries.

By the time Bach was writing music, conservatives were losing the battle over the tritone. Bach used it in certain situations, and eventually it became even more acceptable. Today, it is a natural and expected component of our music. Even the most conservative among us have no problem with the “Devil’s interval.”

How many Bachs had been strangled out of existence by the heavy hand of religious zealots?

That religion poisons music, look no farther than Mormonism. Only certain instruments are allowed in church and only certain songs. I'm not saying it should allow rock bands, but very few instruments and music pieces are allowed and no cultural instruments or pieces are allowed at all. Only thoroughly westernized converts can express their faith with music in church and even then, they have limited options.

I'm not even sure how much from Bach would be allowed in a Mormon church.

It's definitely one of Dan's weakest arguments. I can see why his rebuttal to Hitchens was better left unpublished...

drumdude wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:56 am

It's definitely one of Dan's weakest arguments. I can see why his rebuttal to Hitchens was better left unpublished...

Not quite sure what you are asking of the argument. Does Bach prove the existence of God? No, but his music points in that direction.

He’s aiming for the lowest possible fruit. “Religion poisons *everything*?? Nuh uh! Here’s Bach!” The “sophistication” of the argument never develops beyond that. It’s the old, “I’ve got one counter-example that proves your hyperbolic argument is wrong!” Except that the Proprietor has always seemed to not understand the fundamentally polemical nature of the original claim—probably because he didn’t bother to read beyond page 5.

Gadianton wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:27 am

That religion poisons music, look no further than Mormonism.

We certainly cannot find all the verses to A Mighty Fortress is Our God in the LDS Church. I remember being told at the Mormon MAD board that Amazing Grace was not good enough for the Saints, but now it will be included in the new LDS hymnal, so of course, that board will revise its position.

hauslern wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 09, 2024 8:23 pm

Interesting how Bach and Lewis have common events in their lives. Both lost their parent figure, both at the beginning had awful school experiences and failures, Lewis got a tutor, while Bach realized he had to study hard if he was to survive. Bach lost his first wife and a number of children while Lewis lost his wife.

Lewis who?

Dr. Shades wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:13 am

hauslern wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 09, 2024 8:23 pm

Interesting how Bach and Lewis have common events in their lives. Both lost their parent figure, both at the beginning had awful school experiences and failures, Lewis got a tutor, while Bach realized he had to study hard if he was to survive. Bach lost his first wife and a number of children while Lewis lost his wife.

Lewis who?

Hmm, it could be:

• Lewis and Clark
• Lewis Armstrong
• Lewis Structure
• Sinclair Lewis
• Lewis Lane
• C. S. Lewis
• Lewis Carroll
• Jerry Lee Lewis
• Lewis Body Dementia
• St. Lewis, Missouri

But then, context is everything. Don't you think?

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:51 am

drumdude wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2024 12:56 am

It's definitely one of Dan's weakest arguments. I can see why his rebuttal to Hitchens was better left unpublished...

Not quite sure what you are asking of the argument. Does Bach prove the existence of God? No, but his music points in that direction.

Not for me, but then I'm not a believer. I think the genius of his music evokes strong responses, in the direction of strengthening whatever one may already think or feel about their life.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:51 am

Does Bach prove the existence of God? No, but his music points in that direction.

I admit that I'm with Marcus on this. Please elaborate, Huck.

Does everything that is beautiful point to God?