DCP and Jacob Hess caught lying for the Lord

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drumdude
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DCP and Jacob Hess caught lying for the Lord

Post by drumdude »

DCP wrote:I also want to share here another Deseret News article from the invaluable Jacob Hess. Not infrequently, I encounter comments from politically-left-leaning secular critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in which they claim, or insinuate, that American members of the Church are uniquely faithful to Mr. Donald Trump because aspects of the doctrine or practices or attitudes associated with the Restoration make them Trumpists by nature. It turns out, though, that the data seem clearly to indicate that American Latter-day Saints are not uniquely devoted to Mr. Trump. Indeed, quite the contrary: As a matter of fact, given their predominantly conservative and Republican proclivities, they appear to be uniquely resistant to Mr. Trump
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... -july.html
Jacob Hess wrote:That May 2024 survey found 71% of Latter-day Saints saying “neither party represents my views anymore,” which was measurably larger than people from other faith groups (and larger than various other polls surveying Americans as a whole, such as the 52% of Americans who said in a January Ipsos poll they wanted a third choice).

Compared with the 21% of survey respondents who indicate they are unsure about their vote or would support another candidate, approximately 34% of Latter-day Saints in this spring AEI poll were either undecided or opting out of supporting either of the major candidates. Survey director Daniel Cox concluded that “there is no group of voters more dissatisfied with their choices” than Latter-day Saints.

Why do members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints appear to be more hesitant than most? The Deseret News spoke with a number of American Latter-day Saints who don’t feel comfortable voting for either of the two major presidential candidates in this November’s election, trying to understand their experiences and concerns.
https://www.deseret.com/politics/2024/0 ... er-option/

Let's follow the link to the data, since one should never trust an apologist to accurately represent a source:

https://www.americansurveycenter.org/re ... -election/

The cited data doesn't occur anywhere in the report, and the raw data hasn't been added to the website.

https://www.americansurveycenter.org/da ... load-data/

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... haping.pdf

What is available is this:
The data wrote:A majority of religiously unaffiliated voters (69 percent), Black Protestants (88 percent), and Hispanic Catholics (55 percent) support Biden. However, Trump holds an advantage among white Catholics (58 percent), white mainline Protestants (59 percent), Latter-day Saints (69 percent), and white evangelical Protestants (83 percent).
The only important statistic regarding LDS voters in the PDF summary was this: that LDS voters are actually very solid Trump voters, only behind evangelical Protestants.

When they are in the polling booth, a staggering 80 percent of Mormons over the age of 40 vote for Trump. Where is Dan Peterson's "uniquely resistant" Mormon voter? Funnily enough, they're the millenial and Gen Z Mormons:

Image

It seems Dan has some work to do convincing his fellow Baby Boomers.
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Moksha
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Re: DCP and Jacob Hess caught lying for the Lord

Post by Moksha »

Older Mormons know that Trump is God's one true politician. The numbers would shoot up south of the SL County line.
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Kishkumen
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Re: DCP and Jacob Hess caught lying for the Lord

Post by Kishkumen »

I didn’t see evidence in those documents to support the idea that LDS people are, generally speaking, especially immune to Trumpism. That said, I have been impressed with those LDS people who have resisted Trumpism and spoken out against him, such as Mitt Romney, Rusty Bowers, Tom Griffith (who has been less vocal but has made public efforts to counter the threat of Trumpism), and, to the extent he feels free to do so, DCP. I think these LDS opponents of Trump represent the best of Mormonism in opposing Trump and sticking to the principles of their religion in doing so.
"Great power connected with ambition, luxury and flattery, will as readily produce a Caesar, Caligula, Nero and Domitian in America, as the same causes did in the Roman Empire." ~Cato, New York Journal
drumdude
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Re: DCP and Jacob Hess caught lying for the Lord

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2024 3:00 pm
I didn’t see evidence in those documents to support the idea that LDS people are, generally speaking, especially immune to Trumpism. That said, I have been impressed with those LDS people who have resisted Trumpism and spoken out against him, such as Mitt Romney, Rusty Bowers, Tom Griffith (who has been less vocal but has made public efforts to counter the threat of Trumpism), and, to the extent he feels free to do so, DCP. I think these LDS opponents of Trump represent the best of Mormonism in opposing Trump and sticking to the principles of their religion in doing so.
I agree. These Mormons are, unfortunately, exceptional.
jzhess
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Re: DCP and Jacob Hess caught lying for the Lord

Post by jzhess »

Hello - a friend let me know some question had been raised here about the accuracy of my representation of the AEI data. I took the chance to reach out to survey director Dan Cox, to make sure my reporting was faithfully representing their findings - and to ask if there was a better link to embed in my article. Here was his response:

"Those figures are accurate… I don’t see any problems with what you wrote. Unfortunately, there is no link I can provide where we break out the poll results for LDS respondents. This is fairly typical. We can’t publish results for every demographic group."

You’ll notice my report focused on numbers of people expressing hesitancy towards both candidates. You've pointed out it’s surprising how many members of the Church are representing the former president - which is fair, but not contradictory to what I raise.

There are two (honest) questions I’d raise in response to your suggestion that “one should never trust an apologist to accurately represent a source.”

(1) Could a more parsimonious explanation be that two people could look at different data sources and honesty come to different conclusions? (versus presuming that anyone who holds a particular view is “lying”)

(2) Given that you appear to hold that view towards me (and others), I wonder what has led to this position - hurt, pain, misunderstanding - and how you think that pain can heal between someone like you and someone like me? That's something I think about a lot - and would welcome your thoughts.

I’d be open to talking about this further, if you want to reach out to my email, jhess@deseretnews.com. I won’t be coming back to this site to see a response - but wanted to share this clarification. I don’t personally consider this a place where a conversation about faith is taking place that is truly open to all perspectives, including one that attests to the gospel's truthfulness.
drumdude
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Re: DCP and Jacob Hess caught lying for the Lord

Post by drumdude »

jzhess wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 6:09 pm
Hello - a friend let me know some question had been raised here about the accuracy of my representation of the AEI data. I took the chance to reach out to survey director Dan Cox, to make sure my reporting was faithfully representing their findings - and to ask if there was a better link to embed in my article. Here was his response:

"Those figures are accurate… I don’t see any problems with what you wrote. Unfortunately, there is no link I can provide where we break out the poll results for LDS respondents. This is fairly typical. We can’t publish results for every demographic group."

You’ll notice my report focused on numbers of people expressing hesitancy towards both candidates. You've pointed out it’s surprising how many members of the Church are representing the former president - which is fair, but not contradictory to what I raise.

There are two (honest) questions I’d raise in response to your suggestion that “one should never trust an apologist to accurately represent a source.”

(1) Could a more parsimonious explanation be that two people could look at different data sources and honesty come to different conclusions? (versus presuming that anyone who holds a particular view is “lying”)

(2) Given that you appear to hold that view towards me (and others), I wonder what has led to this position - hurt, pain, misunderstanding - and how you think that pain can heal between someone like you and someone like me? That's something I think about a lot - and would welcome your thoughts.

I’d be open to talking about this further, if you want to reach out to my email, jhess@deseretnews.com. I won’t be coming back to this site to see a response - but wanted to share this clarification. I don’t personally consider this a place where a conversation about faith is taking place that is truly open to all perspectives, including one that attests to the gospel's truthfulness.
I’d be open to talking about this publicly, and I’d like to note here that it’s very telling you’re not willing to do that.
drumdude
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Re: DCP and Jacob Hess caught lying for the Lord

Post by drumdude »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2024 1:44 am
When they are in the polling booth, a staggering 80 percent of Mormons over the age of 40 vote for Trump. Where is Dan Peterson's "uniquely resistant" Mormon voter? Funnily enough, they're the millenial and Gen Z Mormons:

Image

It seems Dan has some work to do convincing his fellow Baby Boomers.
I’ll note this again, since it hasn’t been addressed. Dan can cite all the articles he wants but still hasn’t addressed the fact that 80 percent of Mormons over the age of 40 vote for Trump.

They can hold their nose, they can vomit in the polling booth, they can make the sign of the cross if they want to. They’re still supporting Trump in the only way that matters: with their vote.

I’ll be watching the results of 2024 to see if this changes. I am not holding my breath, and I bet Dan isn’t either.
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