Mormon Worldview

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Fence Sitter
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by Fence Sitter »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:04 pm
I think the main point of contention between Mormons and other Christians is if the Bible and faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

Mormonism tells you that it is not sufficient, and that following the brethren is both necessary and sufficient for salvation.

In my mind, that is not just a different of opinion, it’s a sign of a cult. Not even the pope claims that following him is necessary for salvation.
I am not sure I see a whole lot of difference between blind faith in a living person and blind faith in what a dead one (or ones) have written.
drumdude
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by drumdude »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:13 pm
drumdude wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:04 pm
I think the main point of contention between Mormons and other Christians is if the Bible and faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

Mormonism tells you that it is not sufficient, and that following the brethren is both necessary and sufficient for salvation.

In my mind, that is not just a different of opinion, it’s a sign of a cult. Not even the pope claims that following him is necessary for salvation.
I am not sure I see a whole lot of difference between blind faith in a living person and blind faith in what a dead one (or ones) have written.
The dead one doesn’t ask you for money.
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IWMP
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by IWMP »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:03 pm
IWMP wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:50 pm
The articles of faith might help OP?
I thought so too, so I posted them on this thread, page four.
:)
pgm1985
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by pgm1985 »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:04 pm
I think the main point of contention between Mormons and other Christians is if the Bible and faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

Mormonism tells you that it is not sufficient, and that following the brethren is both necessary and sufficient for salvation.
You bring up a great point. Based on the Mormon Articles of Faith, salvation is achieved through the atonement of Jesus AND obedience to the laws and ordinances in the Book of Mormon. But the real answer, based on what you have been saying, is obedience to the brethren, not the Book of Mormon. This would make Mormon belief in salvation fluid and relative to man.

This is significantly different from Christianity’s doctrine of salvation, which has remained unchanged since the Bible was written. The entire Bible is the story of man’s redemptive history starting with the fall of man in Genesis. In Genesis 3:15, God promises there will be a future savior to defeat Satan. Once sin and death entered the world through Adam (Romans 5:12), mankind became separated from God and a perfect sacrifice was required, a sacrifice mankind could not provide. The key point is man cannot earn salvation through works. No one is righteous (Romans 3:10), all have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the result of that sin is death (Romans 6:23).

But despite our sin, God loves us (Romans 5:8) and fulfilled his promise to send a savior. It is written in John 3:16-17: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” Jesus made it very clear He is the Son of God, His divine nature, and He is the only path to salvation in John 14:6-7: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

This is the Good News of the Gospel. We are redeemed through Christ (Galatians 3:13) and to accept this gift of salvation, all we need to do is “confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). We cannot obtain salvation through works, it is only through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). But through salvation receive the Holy Spirit, which enables us to recognize sin and begin to turn away from it (1 John 3:9). Only through our faith in Jesus do we have the ability to do good works (John 15:5). Good works should result from our faith because faith without works is dead (James 2:26).
drumdude
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by drumdude »

pgm1985 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:59 pm
drumdude wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:04 pm
I think the main point of contention between Mormons and other Christians is if the Bible and faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

Mormonism tells you that it is not sufficient, and that following the brethren is both necessary and sufficient for salvation.
You bring up a great point. Based on the Mormon Articles of Faith, salvation is achieved through the atonement of Jesus AND obedience to the laws and ordinances in the Book of Mormon. But the real answer, based on what you have been saying, is obedience to the brethren, not the Book of Mormon. This would make Mormon belief in salvation fluid and relative to man.

This is significantly different from Christianity’s doctrine of salvation, which has remained unchanged since the Bible was written. The entire Bible is the story of man’s redemptive history starting with the fall of man in Genesis. In Genesis 3:15, God promises there will be a future savior to defeat Satan. Once sin and death entered the world through Adam (Romans 5:12), mankind became separated from God and a perfect sacrifice was required, a sacrifice mankind could not provide. The key point is man cannot earn salvation through works. No one is righteous (Romans 3:10), all have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the result of that sin is death (Romans 6:23).

But despite our sin, God loves us (Romans 5:8) and fulfilled his promise to send a savior. It is written in John 3:16-17: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” Jesus made it very clear He is the Son of God, His divine nature, and He is the only path to salvation in John 14:6-7: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

This is the Good News of the Gospel. We are redeemed through Christ (Galatians 3:13) and to accept this gift of salvation, all we need to do is “confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). We cannot obtain salvation through works, it is only through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). But through salvation receive the Holy Spirit, which enables us to recognize sin and begin to turn away from it (1 John 3:9). Only through our faith in Jesus do we have the ability to do good works (John 15:5). Good works should result from our faith because faith without works is dead (James 2:26).
Most Mormons have good answers to these kinds of debates, they can quote scripture to back up their arguments as well. In my opinion the Bible and Christianity is just as man-made as Mormonism. Seeing how the “sausage is made” with Mormonism leads many to realize that Mormonism isn’t unique: it’s a valuable window into how religions are created.

But since we’re 2000 years away from the events of the New Testament, we can’t see it as clearly as we can with Mormonism.
yellowstone123
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by yellowstone123 »

drumdude wrote:

"Most Mormons have good answers to these kinds of debates, they can quote scripture to back up their arguments as well. In my opinion the Bible and Christianity is just as man-made as Mormonism. Seeing how the “sausage is made” with Mormonism leads many to realize that Mormonism isn’t unique: it’s a valuable window into how religions are created."

Exactly my thoughts. Researching, reading, and even observing Mormonism defiantly gives insight into how a new religious dogma is created, added to, edited and so on to form what they believe today.
“One of the important things for anybody in power is to distinguish between what you have the right to do and what is right to do." Potter Stewart, associate justice of the Supreme Court - 1958 to 1981.
huckelberry
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by huckelberry »

pgm1985 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:59 pm
drumdude wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:04 pm
I think the main point of contention between Mormons and other Christians is if the Bible and faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

Mormonism tells you that it is not sufficient, and that following the brethren is both necessary and sufficient for salvation.
You bring up a great point. Based on the Mormon Articles of Faith, salvation is achieved through the atonement of Jesus AND obedience to the laws and ordinances in the Book of Mormon. But the real answer, based on what you have been saying, is obedience to the brethren, not the Book of Mormon. This would make Mormon belief in salvation fluid and relative to man.
pgm1985, It might be reasonable to see Mormon obedience and ordinance as part of the process the Reformed tradition calls sanctification. I would assume your church has some sort of instruction on what actions further that process and what actions should be avoided.
pgm1985
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by pgm1985 »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:29 pm
Most Mormons have good answers to these kinds of debates, they can quote scripture to back up their arguments as well. In my opinion the Bible and Christianity is just as man-made as Mormonism. Seeing how the “sausage is made” with Mormonism leads many to realize that Mormonism isn’t unique: it’s a valuable window into how religions are created.

But since we’re 2000 years away from the events of the New Testament, we can’t see it as clearly as we can with Mormonism.
I don’t see how Mormons can say they believe both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are inspired by God when there are clear contradictions in the basic tenants of salvation. Additionally, since the brethren can override what the Book of Mormon states, then it really has no authority in Mormonism.

Why evidence do you have to suggest Christianity is man made? Where do you find truth and what is your ultimate authority?
drumdude
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by drumdude »

pgm1985 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:39 pm
drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 2:29 pm
Most Mormons have good answers to these kinds of debates, they can quote scripture to back up their arguments as well. In my opinion the Bible and Christianity is just as man-made as Mormonism. Seeing how the “sausage is made” with Mormonism leads many to realize that Mormonism isn’t unique: it’s a valuable window into how religions are created.

But since we’re 2000 years away from the events of the New Testament, we can’t see it as clearly as we can with Mormonism.
I don’t see how Mormons can say they believe both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are inspired by God when there are clear contradictions in the basic tenants of salvation. Additionally, since the brethren can override what the Book of Mormon states, then it really has no authority in Mormonism.

Why evidence do you have to suggest Christianity is man made? Where do you find truth and what is your ultimate authority?
The evidence that it’s man-made is actually in the New Testament itself. You can trace a lot of it through textural analysis, such as the longer ending of Mark added on after the gospel was written.

I recommend Bart Ehrman’s lectures on the evolution of beliefs about Jesus. Specifically how Jesus morphed from an apocalyptic preacher into God himself. That evolution shows this was not a doctrine handed down from heaven; but just human ideas morphing and changing the way human ideas always do.
pgm1985
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Re: Mormon Worldview

Post by pgm1985 »

huckelberry wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:10 pm
pgm1985 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:59 pm
You bring up a great point. Based on the Mormon Articles of Faith, salvation is achieved through the atonement of Jesus AND obedience to the laws and ordinances in the Book of Mormon. But the real answer, based on what you have been saying, is obedience to the brethren, not the Book of Mormon. This would make Mormon belief in salvation fluid and relative to man.
pgm1985, It might be reasonable to see Mormon obedience and ordinance as part of the process the Reformed tradition calls sanctification. I would assume your church has some sort of instruction on what actions further that process and what actions should be avoided.
Yes we do, it pretty much consists of study the Bible with fellow Christians, devote time to God, and carry out the Great Commission. One thing every orthodox Christian church has in common is the Preacher will always tell his congregation to test his words against the Bible to make sure he is speaking truth. The Bible is and always will be the standard of truth because it is God’s unchanging Word. To be honest, the fact Mormons put their authority in a man instead of God leads me to view Mormonism as a form of relativism.
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