Another sad personal attack on Jeremy Runnels

[drumdude]

The Mopologists entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to gaslight everybody else and nobody was going to correct them.

At MI, Interpreter, FairMormon, and half a hundred other places, they put that rather naïve theory into operation.
They sowed the wind and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.

[huckelberry]

So Mr. Runnels quit believing before publishing his questions. That is supposed to be dishonest? hmm, I would think that that timing would be the natural sequence.

a few basics from Wikipedia:

Jeremy T. Runnells is a critic of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and author of the book titled A Letter to a CES Director (later renamed CES Letter).[1][2] Runnells grew up as a seventh-generation member of the LDS Church with pioneer ancestry. He served a mission for the church in New York and graduated from church-owned Brigham Young University.[3][4] In 2012, he began to experience doubts over his faith. A director of institute of the LDS Church's Church Educational System (CES) asked him to write his concerns, and in response Runnells sent an 84-page letter with his concerns.[5]

[I Have Questions]

Where can one find Peterson’s attempt at addressing the points raised in the CES Letter?

[IWMP]

I think to bring up someone's name just means that that person struck a chord somewhere and has made an impact.

The quote in the OP sort of feel it says, it didn't bother you before so why should it bother you now?

[IWMP]

Where can one find Peterson’s attempt at addressing the points raised in the CES Letter?

Didn't sound like he wrote anything down from that quote. Sounds like he had a gander and dismissed it.

[Marcus]

Where can one find Peterson’s attempt at addressing the points raised in the CES Letter?

I think the first time he gave the presentation was this:
"Reflections on the CES Letter - Daniel Peterson 2014 FAIR Mormon Conference"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJgO42sdYK0&t=3399s

I haven't listened to the whole thing, but, If I recall correctly from past discussions, it was a very rushed, off the cuff and rambling presentation mostly of what's wrong with the author of the ces letter rather than actually addressing the issues listed therein.

Eta: Here's a post from Doc, quoting a response to DCP's 2014 presentation:

Or zombies.

https://cesletter.org/apologetics/a-zom ... tions.html

I had never before heard him speak and so I anxiously awaited to hear from him. However, I was not prepared for the venomous attack that came. He was so derisive of the author (I don't believe that he mentioned Jeremy by name), constantly being dismissive with verbal and facial inflections. In a supercilious tone, he mocked the author, 'It was worrisome reading.' He laughed and scoffed at the author as being amateurish in his approach. Another reference was made about followers of the 'CES Letter' being Zombies or Zombie-like.

The only issue that I recall he directly hit on was the Book of Abraham scroll. He said that the 'CES Letter' says that 'none of Joseph Smith's translations were correct'. Dan took issue with "none" because the crocodile on one the facsimiles was some kind of Egyptian God according to Joseph Smith. And somewhere in Egypt some archeologist has found the head of a croc on a human statue which might be a God-like creature. Therefore, the author of the CES Letter was wrong! Dan, of course, didn't bother to bring up the rest of Joseph Smith's faulty interpretations nor his Egyptian Alphabet.

Several times he complained that the 'Letter's' discussions were too short to adequately discuss the issues and then complained that he had to read all 90 'wearisome pages'.

In sum, I found Dan Peterson to be nothing more than a bully. Intelligent and articulate yes, but still a bully. Innuendo and facial inflections are not intellectual arguments. I lost any respect that I thought I would have for the man. I guess I now know what being an apologist really means.

[hauslern]

Royal Skousen online and on his email to me said he felt the facsimiles should be dropped from the Book of Abraham and the contents accepted as given by revelation.

Tamas Mekis has written a huge volume on the hypocephalus which facsimile 2 is an example of. There is a shorter version of his arguments on what the figures mean:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yX- ... NN1gk/edit

John Gee has written a review in a European Journal:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ei- ... 0vUIg/edit

Egyptologist Kara Cooney said tell Tamas Mekis to ignore as the folks who produce the journal might not be aware of Gee's theological position. Has Gee ever in his writings pointed out the false restorations e.g. figure 3 and figure 7 (a dove?) The sketch shows parts missing and we can see he replaced a wrong figure in 3:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f7Y ... 4Sbbg/edit

He inserted a different picture in the corner. Look at the figure on the bottom right side of this piece of Joseph Smith papyri:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-87 ... Dge0E/edit

Normally the figure is a person in a boat with and insect. Google "hypocephalus British Museum" and you will see what I mean.

Look at page 273 of Mekis' paper. It is Nehebkau who offers the wedjat eye to the sitting deity before him. Figure 7 (Smith) Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing the heavens the grand Key-words of the priesthood: also the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham in the form of a dove. When you look at the sketch you only see the head as the rest must have broken away on the original.

Here is another clear beautiful example from the British Museum: https://www.bmimages.com/preview.asp?image=00852316001 Nehebkau looks to be displaying a penis.

[hauslern]

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... m?lang=eng

Conclusion

The veracity and value of the book of Abraham cannot be settled by scholarly debate concerning the book’s translation and historicity. The book’s status as scripture lies in the eternal truths it teaches and the powerful spirit it conveys. The book of Abraham imparts profound truths about the nature of God, His relationship to us as His children, and the purpose of this mortal life. The truth of the book of Abraham is ultimately found through careful study of its teachings, sincere prayer, and the confirmation of the Spirit.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

[Chap]

The veracity and value of the book of Abraham cannot be settled by scholarly debate concerning the book’s translation and historicity. [...] The truth of the book of Abraham is ultimately found through careful study of its teachings, sincere prayer, and the confirmation of the Spirit.

Riiiiiight ...

"Or in other words" (to borrow an expression from the Book of Mormon):

"All our efforts over past decades to give any solid reason to believe that Smith produced the Book of Abraham by translating (in any normal sense of the word) the text found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus scroll, and that the text thus produced might have embodied teachings of the Biblical patriarch named Abraham have completely failed. We give up. From now on, if you find yourself unable to believe this stuff, it's your fault for not having prayed sincerely enough. Maybe you need to speak to your bishop about your failure."

[drumdude]

There is a new website up, which looks to rise to the top of google searches for CES letter. It’s called “CES Letters”

They take a much softer tone, even though it’s very likely the same group of hostile Mormons running it:

To Whom it Concerns,

Jeremy Runnells, a dedicated member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a "fully believing" returned missionary, encountered a pivotal moment in early 2012. Upon reading an online article, he was startled to discover that individuals were departing from the Church due to historical discrepancies. This revelation propelled him into a fervent, year-long research journey, primarily centered around the community's founder, Joseph Smith. His extensive investigation led to the creation of a letter in April 2013, directed to a director in the Church Educational System (CES), a contact of Jeremy's grandfather. They both hoped that this director could provide clarity on Jeremy's escalating queries. Prior to sending his letter to the CES director, Jeremy shared it online, where it rapidly gained widespread attention. This document is now famously known as the CES Letter.

We aim to answer the concerns found within that Letter in an intellectual and faithful way with the help of historians and experts who have spent their life studying these topics.

https://www.cesletters.org/