DiscussMormonism.com

IWMP wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:16 pm

Oh my gosh. Tried to watch the first link. Oh my. It's not watchable. The non LDS Christian guy was more on the ball and I was processing what he was asking before the Travis guy was replying and then he was like in what way, what do you mean in the part I just watched and didn't answer properly. It's like pulling teeth. I greatly doubt the intention is to look smarter, he looked stoned in the brief part I watched.

Edit clarification edit autocorrect correction and further clarification.

IWMP wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:16 pm

Oh my gosh. Tried to watch the first link. Oh my. It's not watchable. The non LDS Christian guy was more on the ball and I was processing what he was asking before the Travis guy was replying and then he was like in what way, what do you mean in the part I just watched and didn't answer properly. It's like pulling teeth. I greatly doubt the intention is to look smarter, he looked stoned in the brief part I watched.

Edit clarification edit autocorrect correction and further clarification.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2024 12:44 am

IWMP wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:16 pm

Oh my gosh. Tried to watch the first link. Oh my. It's not watchable. The non LDS Christian guy was more on the ball and I was processing what he was asking before the Travis guy was replying and then he was like in what way, what do you mean in the part I just watched and didn't answer properly. It's like pulling teeth. I greatly doubt the intention is to look smarter, he looked stoned in the brief part I watched.

Edit clarification edit autocorrect correction and further clarification.

The state of Mormon apologetics in 2024!

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:12 am

IWMP wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:16 pm

Oh my gosh. Tried to watch the first link. Oh my. It's not watchable. The non LDS Christian guy was more on the ball and I was processing what he was asking before the Travis guy was replying and then he was like in what way, what do you mean in the part I just watched and didn't answer properly. It's like pulling teeth. I greatly doubt the intention is to look smarter, he looked stoned in the brief part I watched.

Edit clarification edit autocorrect correction and further clarification.

I was unsure who looked how but it seemed to be stumbling slowly nowhere. I was unable to continue watching after a bit.

I am waiting, long wait now, for someone to explain what henotheism during the period of kings in Judah has to do with Mormon theology. It keeps being noted as some sort of clever defense of something.

Is the strength and wisdom of Appolo supposed to explain the superior Greek and Roman technology and science?

IWMP wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2024 6:02 am

drumdude wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2024 12:44 am

The state of Mormon apologetics in 2024!

Is Travis just like a "normal" member or an apologist?

IWMP wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2024 6:04 am

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2024 2:12 am

I was unsure who looked how but it seemed to be stumbling slowly nowhere. I was unable to continue watching after a bit.

I am waiting, long wait now, for someone to explain what henotheism during the period of kings in Judah has to do with Mormon theology. It keeps being noted as some sort of clever defense of something.

Is the strength and wisdom of Appolo supposed to explain the superior Greek and Roman technology and science?

Never heard of it. Do you have any theories on the matter?

Second Temple Judaism and Rabbinical Judaism are emphatically monotheistic; however, its predecessor—the cult of Yahweh as it was practiced in ancient Israel during the 9th and 8th centuries BCE (Yahwism)—has been described as henotheistic or monolatric. For example, the Moabites worshipped the god Chemosh, the Edomites, Qaus, both of whom were part of the greater Canaanite pantheon, headed by the chief god, El. The Canaanite pantheon consisted of El and Asherah as the chief deities, with 70 sons who were said to rule over each of the nations of the earth. These sons were each worshiped within a specific region. Kurt Noll states that "the Bible preserves a tradition that Yahweh used to 'live' in the south, in the land of Edom" and that the original god of Israel was El Shaddai.[31]

Several biblical stories allude to the belief that the Canaanite gods all existed and were thought to possess the most power in the lands by the people who worshiped them and their sacred objects; their power was believed to be real and could be invoked by the people who patronized them. There are numerous accounts of surrounding nations of Israel showing fear or reverence for the Israelite God despite their continued polytheistic practices.[32] For instance, in 1 Samuel 4, the Philistines fret before the second battle of Aphek when they learn that the Israelites are bearing the Ark of the Covenant, and therefore Yahweh, into battle. The Israelites were forbidden to worship other deities; according to some interpretations of the Bible, they were not fully monotheistic before the Babylonian captivity. The biblical scholar Mark S. Smith refers to this stage as a form of monolatry.[33] Smith argues that Yahweh underwent a process of merging with El and that acceptance of cults of Asherah was common in the period of the Judges.[33] 2 Kings 3:27 has been interpreted as describing a human sacrifice in Moab that led the invading Israelite army to fear the power of Chemosh.[34]
In Christianity

Paul the Apostle, in his First Epistle to the Corinthians, writes that "we know that an idol is nothing" and "that there is none other God but one".[35] He argues in verse 5 that "for though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth", "but to us there is but one God". Some translators of verse 5 put the words "gods" and "lords" in quotes to indicate that they are gods or lords only so-called.[36]

In his Second Epistle to the Corinthians, Paul refers to "the god of this world",[37] which the 18th-century theologian John Gill interpreted as a reference to Satan or the material things put before God, such as money, rather than acknowledging any separate deity from God.[38]
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Some scholars have written that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) can be characterized as henotheistic but others have rejected that stance. Eugene England, a professor at Brigham Young University, asserted that LDS Presidents Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith along with the LDS scholar B. H. Roberts used the LDS interpretation of 1 Corinthians 8:5–6 as "a brief explanation of how it is possible to be both a Christian polytheist (technically a henotheist) and a monotheist".[39] BYU Professor Roger R. Keller rejected descriptions of the LDS Church as polytheistic by countering, as summarized by a reviewer, "Mormons are fundamentally monotheistic because they deal with only one god out of the many which exist."[40]

In their book, Mormon America: The Power and the Promise, Richard and Joan Ostling, wrote that some Mormons are comfortable describing themselves as henotheists.[41] Kurt Widmer, professor at the University of Lethbridge, described LDS beliefs as a "cosmic henotheism".[42] A review of Widmer's book by Bruening and Paulsen in the FARMS Review of Books countered that Widmer's hypothesis was "strongly disconfirmed in light of the total evidence".[43] Van Hale wrote that "Mormonism teaches the existence of gods who are not the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost" and "the existence of more than one god [is] clearly a Mormon doctrine", but he also said that defining this belief system in theological terms was troublesome. According to Van Hale, henotheism might appear to be "promising" in describing LDS beliefs but is ultimately not accurate because henotheism was intended to describe the worship of a god that was restricted to a specific geographical area.[44]

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2024 4:42 pm

IWMP wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 21, 2024 6:04 am

Never heard of it. Do you have any theories on the matter?

In the lilnk the subject of LDS understanding of God, Trinity and LDS multiple Gods is brought up and Travis says well in the old Testament henotheism held. I do not think that does anything to clarify the LDS teaching.

quote Wikipedia for simplicity

Second Temple Judaism and Rabbinical Judaism are emphatically monotheistic; however, its predecessor—the cult of Yahweh as it was practiced in ancient Israel during the 9th and 8th centuries BCE (Yahwism)—has been described as henotheistic or monolatric. For example, the Moabites worshipped the god Chemosh, the Edomites, Qaus, both of whom were part of the greater Canaanite pantheon, headed by the chief god, El. The Canaanite pantheon consisted of El and Asherah as the chief deities, with 70 sons who were said to rule over each of the nations of the earth. These sons were each worshiped within a specific region. Kurt Noll states that "the Bible preserves a tradition that Yahweh used to 'live' in the south, in the land of Edom" and that the original god of Israel was El Shaddai.[31]

Several biblical stories allude to the belief that the Canaanite gods all existed and were thought to possess the most power in the lands by the people who worshiped them and their sacred objects; their power was believed to be real and could be invoked by the people who patronized them. There are numerous accounts of surrounding nations of Israel showing fear or reverence for the Israelite God despite their continued polytheistic practices.[32] For instance, in 1 Samuel 4, the Philistines fret before the second battle of Aphek when they learn that the Israelites are bearing the Ark of the Covenant, and therefore Yahweh, into battle. The Israelites were forbidden to worship other deities; according to some interpretations of the Bible, they were not fully monotheistic before the Babylonian captivity. The biblical scholar Mark S. Smith refers to this stage as a form of monolatry.[33] Smith argues that Yahweh underwent a process of merging with El and that acceptance of cults of Asherah was common in the period of the Judges.[33] 2 Kings 3:27 has been interpreted as describing a human sacrifice in Moab that led the invading Israelite army to fear the power of Chemosh.[34]
In Christianity

Paul the Apostle, in his First Epistle to the Corinthians, writes that "we know that an idol is nothing" and "that there is none other God but one".[35] He argues in verse 5 that "for though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth", "but to us there is but one God". Some translators of verse 5 put the words "gods" and "lords" in quotes to indicate that they are gods or lords only so-called.[36]

In his Second Epistle to the Corinthians, Paul refers to "the god of this world",[37] which the 18th-century theologian John Gill interpreted as a reference to Satan or the material things put before God, such as money, rather than acknowledging any separate deity from God.[38]
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Some scholars have written that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) can be characterized as henotheistic but others have rejected that stance. Eugene England, a professor at Brigham Young University, asserted that LDS Presidents Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith along with the LDS scholar B. H. Roberts used the LDS interpretation of 1 Corinthians 8:5–6 as "a brief explanation of how it is possible to be both a Christian polytheist (technically a henotheist) and a monotheist".[39] BYU Professor Roger R. Keller rejected descriptions of the LDS Church as polytheistic by countering, as summarized by a reviewer, "Mormons are fundamentally monotheistic because they deal with only one god out of the many which exist."[40]

In their book, Mormon America: The Power and the Promise, Richard and Joan Ostling, wrote that some Mormons are comfortable describing themselves as henotheists.[41] Kurt Widmer, professor at the University of Lethbridge, described LDS beliefs as a "cosmic henotheism".[42] A review of Widmer's book by Bruening and Paulsen in the FARMS Review of Books countered that Widmer's hypothesis was "strongly disconfirmed in light of the total evidence".[43] Van Hale wrote that "Mormonism teaches the existence of gods who are not the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost" and "the existence of more than one god [is] clearly a Mormon doctrine", but he also said that defining this belief system in theological terms was troublesome. According to Van Hale, henotheism might appear to be "promising" in describing LDS beliefs but is ultimately not accurate because henotheism was intended to describe the worship of a god that was restricted to a specific geographical area.[44]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

I think the transition to clear monotheism in the Bible is impossible to precisely map out. People have criticized Mormons for being polytheistic. Some apologist have referred to Old Testament henotheism a defense. I think it is a different subject adding nothing but a layer of fog around LDS teaching.