Kish critiques John Dehlin

[Kishkumen]

It should be off putting because they are made up. Harris's book sealed the deal for me on that issue. It is more than patently obvious it is faked. There is no revelation in them. Being told by a doctor you have pulmonary lung disease and are going to die in a year is off putting, but it is vastly superior to saying yes you have at least 25 more years and your energy levels are going to give you joy for hiking, running marathons, climbing the Matterhorn, and sailboating...... sometimes the truth is off putting.

I agree that the way the patriarchal blessing of Black LDS folk was done is tragic, but “made up” as a way of dismissing patriarchal blessings out of hand does not work for me. I think it is a lot more complex and interesting than that. Religion is about imagination, to no small degree, but imagination working together for good. It does fail sometimes. It failed for those Black folk who were told they descended from Ham or Cain. Terrible travesty. That is why those blessings ought to be redone.

[mormonstories]

Kish - Just watched the critique. I really enjoyed it and found it super valuable. And you’re correct….I’m often not as careful as I’d like to be. As an example….I actually am super grateful for my own patriarchal blessing, and would literally never tell a Mormon in a direct conversation that their PB is useless. Never have, and never would. I don’t even believe that myself. I do see a ton of value in PB’s. And yet I clearly told 20,000 people this on the Internet (or at least that’s what you heard, and I’m certain you’re not alone).

Will try to do better. Thanks for the thoughtful critique Kish.

[Kishkumen]

Kish - Just watched the critique. I really enjoyed it and found it super valuable. And you’re correct….I’m often not as careful as I’d like to be. As an example….I actually am super grateful for my own patriarchal blessing, and would literally never tell a Mormon in a direct conversation that their PB is useless. Never have, and never would. I don’t even believe that myself. I do see a ton of value in PB’s. And yet I clearly told 20,000 people this on the Internet (or at least that’s what you heard, and I’m certain you’re not alone).

Will try to do better. Thanks for the thoughtful critique Kish.

Thank you for the gift of Mormon Stories! It keeps feeding my hunger for worthwhile and enlightening insights into the lives of LDS people of differing views and experiences. Keep up the great work!

Thank you also for dropping by to share your thoughts with us.

[Dr Moore]

Kish - Just watched the critique. I really enjoyed it and found it super valuable. And you’re correct….I’m often not as careful as I’d like to be. As an example….I actually am super grateful for my own patriarchal blessing, and would literally never tell a Mormon in a direct conversation that their PB is useless. Never have, and never would. I don’t even believe that myself. I do see a ton of value in PB’s. And yet I clearly told 20,000 people this on the Internet (or at least that’s what you heard, and I’m certain you’re not alone).

Will try to do better. Thanks for the thoughtful critique Kish.

And thank you for all you do that is positive!

[Kishkumen]

Kish - Just watched the critique. I really enjoyed it and found it super valuable. And you’re correct….I’m often not as careful as I’d like to be. As an example….I actually am super grateful for my own patriarchal blessing, and would literally never tell a Mormon in a direct conversation that their PB is useless. Never have, and never would. I don’t even believe that myself. I do see a ton of value in PB’s. And yet I clearly told 20,000 people this on the Internet (or at least that’s what you heard, and I’m certain you’re not alone).

Will try to do better. Thanks for the thoughtful critique Kish.

And thank you for all you do that is positive!

Amen!

[huckelberry]

Kishkumen, I certainly see your point of respecting what Patriarchal blessing mean to people. Expanding that observation there is value in respecting what people see in their religious ideas, forms, doctrines even if one sees negative dimensions to those ideas. That can be a bit of a tight rope walk however. When fundamentalism slides into Christian nationalism the conflict becomes harsh. Well that is not exactly what we are talking about. Well it is not miles away either, my memory complains of the pious racism funneled into my mind , exampled by that Ham business but not limited to it.

I think it may be difficult to redo the blessings without troubling the hope of revelation and spiritual blessings in the ritual. Perhaps a doctrinal adjustment about the meaning of race could help but that starts to slide into that area of explaining the ban and all the racist suggestions. Perhaps with time leaders will come up with the courage to do that. (if they care)

A point about your critique, I am unsure of which Dehlin presentation you were talking about. i searched and found one with Harris discussing his book with one black man participating. the Historian had some interesting details about mission policy in the time of the ban. I am not sure if that is the discussion you meant to reference. John struggled with how to relate to or speak of the blessing with linage of Cain or Ham. Seeing those with reverence is not so easy.

Perhaps you could link the Mormon stories episode in question.

[drumdude]

Perhaps you could link the Mormon stories episode in question.

This would be very helpful.

[Kishkumen]

Kishkumen, I certainly see your point of respecting what Patriarchal blessing mean to people. Expanding that observation there is value in respecting what people see in their religious ideas, forms, doctrines even if one sees negative dimensions to those ideas. That can be a bit of a tight rope walk however. When fundamentalism slides into Christian nationalism the conflict becomes harsh. Well that is not exactly what we are talking about. Well it is not miles away either, my memory complains of the pious racism funneled into my mind , exampled by that Ham business but not limited to it.

I agree that it is a difficult tightrope, huckelberry. I don’t think it is necesssary to agree with beliefs you don’t share. Rather, I think it is possible to take such views seriously as a topic worth investigating while stating your own disagreement with it.

I think it may be difficult to redo the blessings without troubling the hope of revelation and spiritual blessings in the ritual. Perhaps a doctrinal adjustment about the meaning of race could help but that starts to slide into that area of explaining the ban and all the racist suggestions. Perhaps with time leaders will come up with the courage to do that. (if they care)

If a person has a serious reason to request a second blessing, such a thing could be arranged. I am fairly sure this kind of thing has happened more than once.

A point about your critique, I am unsure of which Dehlin presentation you were talking about. i searched and found one with Harris discussing his book with one black man participating. the Historian had some interesting details about mission policy in the time of the ban. I am not sure if that is the discussion you meant to reference. John struggled with how to relate to or speak of the blessing with linage of Cain or Ham. Seeing those with reverence is not so easy.

Perhaps you could link the Mormon stories episode in question.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will be sure to add a link soon.

[Markk]

Kish - Just watched the critique. I really enjoyed it and found it super valuable. And you’re correct….I’m often not as careful as I’d like to be. As an example….I actually am super grateful for my own patriarchal blessing, and would literally never tell a Mormon in a direct conversation that their PB is useless. Never have, and never would. I don’t even believe that myself. I do see a ton of value in PB’s. And yet I clearly told 20,000 people this on the Internet (or at least that’s what you heard, and I’m certain you’re not alone).

Will try to do better. Thanks for the thoughtful critique Kish.

John,

There is a scene in Tombstone when Doc Holiday kills Johnny Ringo and then places his law badge on Ringo's chest and tells Wyatt Earp "his hypocrisy only goes so far"..... I mean give me a break. You are a great and awesome interviewer, but everything in your persona is anti Mormon. Everything.

Is a patriarchal blessing a real blessing from a real God IYO, or a guess by a well being man? Do you believe the PB is a God given blessing from a real an living God through some sort of PH power....??? I mean come on John.

Give me a break.

by the way watch your last episode with Sandra and your crew, I am still laughing.

[Marcus]

It should be off putting because they are made up. Harris's book sealed the deal for me on that issue. It is more than patently obvious it is faked. There is no revelation in them. Being told by a doctor you have pulmonary lung disease and are going to die in a year is off putting, but it is vastly superior to saying yes you have at least 25 more years and your energy levels are going to give you joy for hiking, running marathons, climbing the Matterhorn, and sailboating...... sometimes the truth is off putting.

I agree that the way the patriarchal blessing of Black LDS folk was done is tragic, but “made up” as a way of dismissing patriarchal blessings out of hand does not work for me.

Would calling them, to use your term, fecal sacks, work better?

Just kidding. If one believes a thing is made up, then calling it made up is their opinion about a thing, and their opinion deserves just as much respect as any other opinion. It's not disrespectful to any particular person to discuss things, unless that person decides to consider it disrespectful.

I think it is a lot more complex and interesting than that. Religion is about imagination, to no small degree, but imagination working together for good. It does fail sometimes. It failed for those Black folk who were told they descended from Ham or Cain. Terrible travesty. That is why those blessings ought to be redone.

So, the blessings given by a racist god only need to be redone if the racism is blatant. I joke, however, because in my opinion patriarchal blessings are made up, and are no different than horoscopes, palm readings, ouija board results, scrying, numerology outcomes, and other divination practices.

The racism in the purveyors of such techniques will come through. Redoing the made-up technique is not the solution.