Kish critiques John Dehlin

[Kishkumen]

The racism in the purveyors of such techniques will come through. Redoing the made-up technique is not the solution.

If this made any sense, I would try to come up with a response to it. Perhaps it is fortunate for both of us that it does not.

[Rivendale]

Completely disagree with your support of patriarchal blessings. You support a road map of a religious traditions attempt of giving generalities to live your life sprinkled with the icing of Mormonism. John was right in his analysis. You were wrong.

[Dr Moore]

I would have to say, the devil is in the details. Just because someone views the words of a blessing as “sacred” does not mean the process has to be respected or reverenced. In fact, if the process is shown to be harmful, such as by sustaining boneheaded racist ideas or by making implicit threats for no purpose other than to sustain an institution, then I would say the feelings of believers should - indeed must - be secondary to the greater good of exposing the fraud.

There is a Stockholm Syndrome principle at play here. Kish I appreciate your considerate tone, but also think you are too generous with the feelings of victims and as a consequence the episode comes off as equivocating on the harmful and, at their root, institutionally sinister elements of Patriarchal Blessings. Just because some of the advice or encouragement in them may be good, does not mean the whole process is deserving of respect or reverence.

[Kishkumen]

Completely disagree with your support of patriarchal blessings. You support a road map of a religious traditions attempt of giving generalities to live your life sprinkled with the icing of Mormonism. John was right in his analysis. You were wrong.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, Rivendale. I am not sure there can be an absolute right or wrong on a subject this rife with subjectivity. My study on oracles (which is what these blessing are, at least in part) suggests that not every oracle is of equal quality, and not every interpreter is of equal skill. Still, a lot depends on the interpreter. Believers who exercise faith in the oracle can experience a subjective benefit from it. So, I don’t see anything intrinsically wrong with patriarchal blessings. They are probably not for everyone, but some people seem to get something out of them. So, I don’t care for the blanket treatment of them as a bad thing.

[Rivendale]

John's quote speaks for itself. These blessings add to it.

There is something fundamentally immoral to presenting a narrative that people build their entire lives upon. They decide what to do with their education, how much money to give, who to marry, when to marry, how many kids to have, what professions to pursue… There’s this massive amount of decisions that you make, you know in a finite life, and to base that life on a narrative, when not only the narrative isn’t what it claims to be, when leaders know the narrative isn’t what it claims to be, and intentionally - for as long as they could - withheld the information that would allow people to make an informed decision about how they spend their finite time and resources – that’s profoundly immoral.” John Dehlin

[Kishkumen]

I would have to say, the devil is in the details. Just because someone views the words of a blessing as “sacred” does not mean the process has to be respected or reverenced. In fact, if the process is shown to be harmful, such as by sustaining boneheaded racist ideas or by making implicit threats for no purpose other than to sustain an institution, then I would say the feelings of believers should - indeed must - be secondary to the greater good of exposing the fraud.

There is a Stockholm Syndrome principle at play here. Kish I appreciate your considerate tone, but also think you are too generous with the feelings of victims and as a consequence the episode comes off as equivocating on the harmful and, at their root, institutionally sinister elements of Patriarchal Blessings. Just because some of the advice or encouragement in them may be good, does not mean the whole process is deserving of respect or reverence.

So, people have been using oracles of all kinds for millennia. I don’t know how we characterize such an omnipresent and ancient phenomenon as a fraud or “harmful.” People engage in divination and consult oracles. Sometimes it is as simple as casting lots, throwing dice, or shaking a magic 8 ball. Sometimes the process is more involved and tied to other purificatory and preparatory processes.

I don’t see anything intrinsically evil or irredeemably bad in patriarchal blessings. It is certainly the case that bad things have come out of them in some cases. The issue with race is definitely an evil, but I don’t think it is a problem that cannot be addressed. I also think that these blessings can and have transcended the strictures of their association with the LDS Church. The Church cannot ultimately control how these blessings are used by the individuals who receive them.

Given this personal understanding, I feel comfortable objecting to the blanket treatment of patriarchal blessings in a denigratory way. If it is not helpful to some of us, that does not mean it is harmful to everyone.

[Kishkumen]

John's quote speaks for itself. These blessings add to it.

There is something fundamentally immoral to presenting a narrative that people build their entire lives upon. They decide what to do with their education, how much money to give, who to marry, when to marry, how many kids to have, what professions to pursue… There’s this massive amount of decisions that you make, you know in a finite life, and to base that life on a narrative, when not only the narrative isn’t what it claims to be, when leaders know the narrative isn’t what it claims to be, and intentionally - for as long as they could - withheld the information that would allow people to make an informed decision about how they spend their finite time and resources – that’s profoundly immoral.” John Dehlin

Rivendale, John is essentially describing what culture does to all human beings. I know he means well, but this statement is patently absurd.

[Rivendale]

I completely disagree. Cultures recognize abhorrent behavior all the time. The problem is recognizing it in real time. The lag time is the issue. I think John has a one of the most knowledgeable perspectives of people's stories in Mormonism than anyone. You can critique the absurdity of it all day long but he has the stories of people who live this.....you seem to want to taint those stories with philosophical nonsense.

[Rivendale]

I would have to say, the devil is in the details. Just because someone views the words of a blessing as “sacred” does not mean the process has to be respected or reverenced. In fact, if the process is shown to be harmful, such as by sustaining boneheaded racist ideas or by making implicit threats for no purpose other than to sustain an institution, then I would say the feelings of believers should - indeed must - be secondary to the greater good of exposing the fraud.

There is a Stockholm Syndrome principle at play here. Kish I appreciate your considerate tone, but also think you are too generous with the feelings of victims and as a consequence the episode comes off as equivocating on the harmful and, at their root, institutionally sinister elements of Patriarchal Blessings. Just because some of the advice or encouragement in them may be good, does not mean the whole process is deserving of respect or reverence.

Cheers. I felt the same way. It was the equivalent of Don Bradley's esoteric views of demonstrably absurd positions. I personally know people misguided by a patriarchal blessing. This seems to be a Jordan Peterson spillover where what is useful is true. Gross.

[Dr Moore]

I would have to say, the devil is in the details. Just because someone views the words of a blessing as “sacred” does not mean the process has to be respected or reverenced. In fact, if the process is shown to be harmful, such as by sustaining boneheaded racist ideas or by making implicit threats for no purpose other than to sustain an institution, then I would say the feelings of believers should - indeed must - be secondary to the greater good of exposing the fraud.

There is a Stockholm Syndrome principle at play here. Kish I appreciate your considerate tone, but also think you are too generous with the feelings of victims and as a consequence the episode comes off as equivocating on the harmful and, at their root, institutionally sinister elements of Patriarchal Blessings. Just because some of the advice or encouragement in them may be good, does not mean the whole process is deserving of respect or reverence.

So, people have been using oracles of all kinds for millennia. I don’t know how we characterize such an omnipresent and ancient phenomenon as a fraud or “harmful.” People engage in divination and consult oracles. Sometimes it is as simple as casting lots, throwing dice, or shaking a magic 8 ball. Sometimes the process is more involved and tied to other purificatory and preparatory processes.

I don’t see anything intrinsically evil or irredeemably bad in patriarchal blessings. It is certainly the case that bad things have come out of them in some cases. The issue with race is definitely an evil, but I don’t think it is a problem that cannot be addressed. I also think that these blessings can and have transcended the strictures of their association with the LDS Church. The Church cannot ultimately control how these blessings are used by the individuals who receive them.

Given this personal understanding, I feel comfortable objecting to the blanket treatment of patriarchal blessings in a denigratory way. If it is not helpful to some of us, that does not mean it is harmful to everyone.

Understood. To clarify my point of view:

1) Pronouncements of the lineage of Cain, who in Christianity is second only to Lucifer, upon black people is definitely “an evil” that arguably can only be fixed by admitting the fraud of a major - the first for sure, if not the primary - purpose of the blessings in the first place.
2) Many many blessings contain implicit punishments for failure to deliver on certain performances that serve the church. I believe this is also an institutional evil that can only be repaired by acknowledging the motivations imposed on Patriarchs. I wager there are zero Patriarchal Blessings that contain language encouraging the recipient to follow their heart even if it means leaving the church or pursuing another spiritual path.