How Kish Became a Nibley Fan

[Kishkumen]

https://youtu.be/h4qAe09AnCo?si=iLICI3JlnO2ajBln

This is an autobiographical installment about how I got into Nibley’s work, went to BYU to study with him, and changed the focus of my studies as a result. I get into the experience of the Nibley wannabe students and how we idolized both Nibley and John Gee.

This will be my last long episode for a while. I will cut down my episodes significantly (in length) hereafter.

[sock puppet]

Nibley's prayer at graduation? Ha ha, he must have had a real sense for the inappropriate, or delighted in kicking against the pricks. (That's the first I'd heard of that prayer.)

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Kish, I'm glad you were able to learn a valuable lesson about never helping Nibley find his car.

I'm guessing Nibley's car looked something like this:

[Kishkumen]

Kish, I'm glad you were able to learn a valuable lesson about never helping Nibley find his car.

I'm guessing Nibley's car looked something like this:

Yep! Pretty much! I learned a valuable lesson indeed.

[Kishkumen]

Nibley's prayer at graduation? Ha ha, he must have had a real sense for the inappropriate, or delighted in kicking against the pricks. (That's the first I'd heard of that prayer.)

A classic! Lots of people love to tell the story.

[Gadianton]

Yes, lots of people tell the story, and the way I heard the story the first time was as if the person telling it was there to see it. I remember a jolt when reading about the story, and realizing the story was in fact a circulated story, and so it was more likely the guy who I heard it from was circulating it rather than telling it from his own experience. I wonder what it is about some stories like that one. Maybe it has to do with the general authorities being there, and if you were there; you'd be in the audience and witnessing the facial reactions of the authorities in real time as Nibley goes off script, and that's what really gave the story its punch.

Great episode. I thought Nibley got his Phd in Arabic?

As for the "incident", that was a fascinating explanation for it as I never knew that was a practice. Complete news to me as of today, and I thought I knew everything about Chapel Mormonism. You've done a serious favor for the apologists, who can now quietly point to "someone else" who made the suggestion, who we really shouldn't be listening to, but if someone is really worried, then quietly go there.

I agree that Nibley was an elitist. I think he really believed he should be a populist, but we can't be something we're not, at the end of the day.

I'd agree with your interpretation that Nibley suggested the changes came because people weren't ready, and he may have even meant that the changes in fact were apostasy, not revelation. He believed in the apostasy-restoration cycle like Marxists believe workers will rise against capital. Apostasy and restoration was rhythmic, it has happened many times in history. It's unlikely he would have believed "this time is different" and we get a free pass. Do you know what ever happened to your fellow Nibleyites in terms of faith?

I've recounted before my association with further removed disciples. Nibley had a serious cult following. Even if the apologists white wash Nibley and insist he was misunderstood, he certainly had followers with whom he was on good terms with, who believed the Church was in apostasy, and they got it directly from Nibley in "whispers" like you point out, where they fill in some of the blanks themselves. Jacques Derrida had a few very practical insights, and one of them was an author is responsible for their misreadings as well as their readings. If so many folks were inspired to disassociate from the Church and live the "Rechabite principal" as literally as they could, and the first wave personally knew Nibley and felt encouraged by him, then I think Nibley definitely can be said to have preached apostasy.

Along with that apostasy came some very questionable things that I wanted nothing to do with, but I can't fault his observations of the Church, which were Veblenesque and dead on, at least to me. I think FARMS did a real disservice to their guy by publishing a right-wing article formally condemning Nibley's politics with libertarian talking points. Yes, Nibley's politics were sophomoric and idealistic and impractical. It's so obvious that it's not something Phd's on his own side need to formally take up and write point-by-point responses to, because they are embarrassed to face their wealthy donors. It's doubly embarrassing when one's own political worldview is even more facile.

[IWMP]

If he believes in an apostasy/restoration cycle, and that this wouldn't be the last, then this wouldn't be the last dispensation. I may have read wrong.

[Moksha]

I thought Nibley got his Phd in Arabic?

I thought it was in Reformed Egyptian.

By now Nibley might be fluent in Mesopotamian and Atlantean from his additional Celestial wives.

[Gadianton]

If he believes in an apostasy/restoration cycle, and that this wouldn't be the last, then this wouldn't be the last dispensation. I may have read wrong

I think it would go too far to say that he didn't believe these were the last days. But it might become really confusing, because he would also tell you that the Saints at the time of Christ believed they were living in the end times. I don't recall anything he ever wrote hinting at the second coming being around the corner. I don't recall him ever saying it wasn't. I'm just saying he believed in this cycle. That the folks of this cycle are any less required to live the gospel and can have all the blessings on the cheap doesn't make much sense.

[Kishkumen]

Yes, lots of people tell the story, and the way I heard the story the first time was as if the person telling it was there to see it. I remember a jolt when reading about the story, and realizing the story was in fact a circulated story, and so it was more likely the guy who I heard it from was circulating it rather than telling it from his own experience. I wonder what it is about some stories like that one. Maybe it has to do with the general authorities being there, and if you were there; you'd be in the audience and witnessing the facial reactions of the authorities in real time as Nibley goes off script, and that's what really gave the story its punch.

In my view the story is powerful because it captures something about the way Nibley’s frankly stated viewpoints could upset the applecart.

Great episode. I thought Nibley got his Phd in Arabic?

Ancient history, in fact. He wrote a great article on Roman history, but he moved on quickly to other things. I don’t think he liked the Romans at all, so I am not surprised he did move on. Thanks for the praise for the episode, Dean!

Do you know what ever happened to your fellow Nibleyites in terms of faith?

One left the LDS Church and another is a BYU religion professor. The rest I did not keep in touch with. I am sad about that. The one who became a religion professor at BYU I have not talked to in years. As of right now, I am not in regular touch with any of them, but I know the BYU religion professor goes to the Jerusalem Center and still teaches at BYU. I have another couple of friends and former students—to an extent, I wouldn’t want to exaggerate the degree to which they were *my* students—who are currently on the BYU faculty, religion and otherwise. But I have never talked with them about their Nibley opinions.

I've recounted before my association with further removed disciples. Nibley had a serious cult following. Even if the apologists white wash Nibley and insist he was misunderstood, he certainly had followers with whom he was on good terms with, who believed the Church was in apostasy, and they got it directly from Nibley in "whispers" like you point out, where they fill in some of the blanks themselves. Jacques Derrida had a few very practical insights, and one of them was an author is responsible for their misreadings as well as their readings. If so many folks were inspired to disassociate from the Church and live the "Rechabite principal" as literally as they could, and the first wave personally knew Nibley and felt encouraged by him, then I think Nibley definitely can be said to have preached apostasy.

One of my former professors started a small subsect of Mormonism while he was still on the BYU faculty. It essentially ended his career. Nibley featured prominently in his special theology. I can just be thankful he did not pull a Chad Daybell. I think you are right that he felt the Church was in some kind of slide, but he also believed in being obedient to the Brethren, which he may have felt compensated for his other problematic views.

Along with that apostasy came some very questionable things that I wanted nothing to do with, but I can't fault his observations of the Church, which were Veblenesque and dead on, at least to me. I think FARMS did a real disservice to their guy by publishing a right-wing article formally condemning Nibley's politics with libertarian talking points. Yes, Nibley's politics were sophomoric and idealistic and impractical. It's so obvious that it's not something Phd's on his own side need to formally take up and write point-by-point responses to, because they are embarrassed to face their wealthy donors. It's doubly embarrassing when one's own political worldview is even more facile.

The GOP quasi-Capitalist gospel does not mix well with Nibley’s “Marxist” Zion teachings at all. I have spoken with friends and family who respected Nibley but felt they were right and he was up in the night as concerned his views on business, etc. He had a fair amount of scorn for the materialism of the LDS elite, and I am sure they didn’t take it very well. That’s probably why guys like DCP came in handy. As long as DCP was raising the funds, he could steer their attention away from Nibley’s noisome economic views.