Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[Marcus]

My faith in God and my belief in God was not founded on my belief in the religion of my youth. As young as 2 or 3 years old I recall God speaking to me and feelings His presence. When I was 7 God spoke to me and filled me with wonder and awe. When I was a teen, God comforted me. And through out my life I have seen God has been with me. When I was devout LDS I denied my experiential knowledge of God and disregarded my experiences because they did not fit the frame created by the LDS church.

Your feelings sound pretty standard within the LDS framework, why did you think they weren't founded on your then belief in the religion you were born into? What made you deny or disregard these feelings when you were LDS?

[Valo]

My faith in God and my belief in God was not founded on my belief in the religion of my youth. As young as 2 or 3 years old I recall God speaking to me and feelings His presence. When I was 7 God spoke to me and filled me with wonder and awe. When I was a teen, God comforted me. And through out my life I have seen God has been with me. When I was devout LDS I denied my experiential knowledge of God and disregarded my experiences because they did not fit the frame created by the LDS church.

Your feelings sound pretty standard within the LDS framework, why did you think they weren't founded on your then belief in the religion you were born into? What made you deny or disregard these feelings when you were LDS?

How much of my religion do you think I comprehended when I was 3? Although my parents were members, I didn't start to regularly attend church until I was baptized at 9, but even then my childhood was tumultuous and church attendance was sporadic. We didn't have regular FHE and I didn't attend Sunday School regularly until I was 14 or so, and even then it wasn't always consistent.

I lived mostly with my father and he was not especially religious and outside of basic things like a belief in God and prayers for dinner, I didn't get much indoctrination from my family. My mother was different but I didn't live with her.

I knew God existed, He had spoken to me, and had a relationship with him before I understood even the most basic Mormon principles. My devoutness to LDS came later as I approached adulthood.

The foundational experiences where God introduces Himself to me in my life are wholly independent and are not associated with any LDS rite, ritual, ordinance, teacher, or doctrine. Although I've had spiritual experiences within an LDS context which might point to the religion being good, nonetheless, in hindsight with clearer vision, even these I learned God wasn't trying to prove Mormonism or Joseph Smith by communicating with me. This was a Father who wants a relationship with His son and that is what these experiences are about.

As far as disregarding them, as an LDS, if your spiritual experience doesn't support the LDS narrative or doctrine, it's suspect. Plus, how could I have had the companionship of the Holy Ghost since at least 2 or 3 years old when I wasn't even baptized and confirmed? And so I disregarded them. Also I disregarded them because I felt guilty and shame for not living up to LDS standards. I was surely unworthy! But these were false ideas given to me by the devil, who, it appears, is in fact Joseph Smith! So the devil wanted me to follow him instead of my heart.

[Marcus]

As far as disregarding them, as an LDS, if your spiritual experience doesn't support the LDS narrative or doctrine, it's suspect. Plus, how could I have had the companionship of the Holy Ghost since at least 2 or 3 years old when I wasn't even baptized and confirmed? And so I disregarded them.

This is what I don't understand. You said you felt god's presence, felt comforted, felt god was with you, felt he spoke to you. None of that is ruled out of an LDS narrative, at any age.

Also I disregarded them because I felt guilty and shame for not living up to LDS standards.

I can see feeling guilt and shame, but again, your reason is not a standard interpretation from within the LDS narrative either. Any LDS would have told you those feelings were from a god trying to get you back on the straight and narrow.

I was surely unworthy! But these were false ideas given to me by the devil, who, it appears, is in fact Joseph Smith! So the devil wanted me to follow him instead of my heart.

How did you conclude that Joseph Smith was speaking to you and giving you feelings of unworthiness? What led you to believe what you were feeling was actually the devil in disguise?

[I Have Questions]

I knew “God” existed, He had spoken to me…

How did you determine that was God, as opposed to something self-generated, or an entirely different supernatural entity?

[malkie]

I knew “God” existed, He had spoken to me…

How did you determine that was God, as opposed to something self-generated, or an entirely different supernatural entity?

In the canonised version of the first vision, even Joseph does not claim that god spoke to him. The church has run with the inference that the two "personages" were god the father, and Jesus. But I think it's significant that Joseph does not say who they were.

For all we know, they could have been Screwtape and Wormwood. Yes, I know that the supposed relationship between the senior devil and the junior tempter was said to be that of uncle/nephew, but if Screwtape had been a real "devil", surely he would not have flinched at the lie that Wormwood was his son.

[Valo]

As far as disregarding them, as an LDS, if your spiritual experience doesn't support the LDS narrative or doctrine, it's suspect. Plus, how could I have had the companionship of the Holy Ghost since at least 2 or 3 years old when I wasn't even baptized and confirmed? And so I disregarded them.

This is what I don't understand. You said you felt god's presence, felt comforted, felt god was with you, felt he spoke to you. None of that is ruled out of an LDS narrative, at any age.

What's your point? First in LDS narrative you can't have the companionship of the Holy Ghost when 3 years old or essentially from life. I've had that gift since birth. Second, in no instance when I was three or six or seven was I thinking anything Mormon or was it in my mind. I was oblivious. These experiences happened. I just so happen to have been born into a LDS background. But that background has nothing to do with these experiences and in fact never has any true communication from God been a result of anything LDS co. produces. They get no credit for any time God has spoken to me. Whether other believers who are Mormon or not have similar experiences has no bearing on my experiences. I expect there to be similar ideas being taught by God to others. I expect Crist to be consistent in what Crist teaches. There is a certain frequency at which Crist speaks, to me, anyway. Like when you are with someone you trust, you know, you understand, you love, and you feel comfortable being with them. You can sense their essence, their electromagnetic field around them. It's like a firm foundation. Like when you are speaking the truth in a conflict and there is no deception in you. It's like stepping on a solid stone in a swamp. When you are dishonest to yourself or others, you feel it. You know it. When you are honest, even when it's financial or socially harmful for you, and you care about integrity and truth, then it feels right when you are honest. I feel confident and at peace when I do not lie. Crist speaks these words. This is Crist. He advocates for such behavior. He does not have an exception that it's okay to lie to defend Him and His church and/or His prophets. He does not require dishonesty on His behalf. He is not afraid of anything and so needs no defending or explanations or exceptions. Being deceptive and using deception to advance your goals at the expense of others, that's clearly evil. The spirit or voice has never asked me to be evil or to lie or to steal.

I can see feeling guilt and shame, but again, your reason is not a standard interpretation from within the LDS narrative either. Any LDS would have told you those feelings were from a god trying to get you back on the straight and narrow.

I was surely unworthy! But these were false ideas given to me by the devil, who, it appears, is in fact Joseph Smith! So the devil wanted me to follow him instead of my heart.

So what? I'm not sure I see how your point is relevant to what I am saying and what has been asked of me. I'm not defending or trying to fit anything in to an LDS narrative. I'm saying God is independent of the LDS church. The LDS church is not where one goes to get their experiences with God validated. It turns out God is within you and it turns out you can trust your heart and not obey the conscience of another human. It turns out for me that I was good and it had nothing to do with how well I obeyed the LDS rules. Turns out that's all cultish. Turns out God was in my life not because I'm LDS but simply because I'm one of His kids. So once I figured that out, my guilt and shame about not living LDS perfectly, went away because I realized it was nonsense. Especially given God doesn't give one flying crap about those things, at all. That knowledge came from listening to the voice that has been with me my whole life. Turns out it's always been there but because I was confused and/or didn't know what to look for, I dismissed it. Ignored it. Doubted it. It's the same as listening to your heart. It's not the same as emotions although emotions can be invoked.

When I was 18, before I graduated high school, I wanted to join Army reserves and get in to an IT career. I went to the MEPS in Atlanta and spent the a night and a day going through the process. At one point we did a physical and I was checked out by a doctor. I was in his office in my underwear. In the last year I had gained significant weight. I was about 200 pounds standing at 5'11". The doctor said looks I'm a little pudgy. And pointed out my stretch marks. He then asked me did I know who else gets stretch marks? I didn't know, but, suddenly, a thought came to me that said, "pregnant women." It came in an instant and I said that to the doctor. He paused for a second, seemingly surprised, and said "It seems you're smarter than your average bear."

Maybe, maybe not but I didn't know the answer. I got the answer, for free. This has happened other times but this stands out because it's so mundane, so seemingly insignificant that I would be supplied an answer, yet, it happens.

The voice has often given me information I do not know and it's not just limited to wild prophecies or the mundane.

How did you conclude that Joseph Smith was speaking to you and giving you feelings of unworthiness? What led you to believe what you were feeling was actually the devil in disguise?

It was a metaphor. Joseph Smith founded the LDS church. I lived many years obeying the gospel as it came from the conscience of the LDS Corp. Spirits are patterns of being and they can also possess and take over. In a very real way when you are a following LDS you are obeying or following a spirit. So insofar as I accepted the dogma and doctrine that was misleading that came from the church Joseph Smith established, I was listening to the devil.

I don't know anything, really and I could be full of crap. but it appears from a certain perspective that Joseph Smith is the devil and the LDS church is the great and abominable church. Satan and the devil are two separate entities in this narrative. Satan would be the Antichrist and the devil would be the one who does his bidding. In this case I would be literally listening to the devil if I was lifting Joseph Smith up as a holy prophet of God. Joseph Smith was a prophet, but not a prophet of God. Or so it appears.

If I exist then in my existence I've had this voice with me my whole life. It has proven to me that it is a truthful spirit and seeks my best while requiring me to respect the sovereignty of others. So far I have not been led astray by this voice and have grown to trust it. I have come to identify the spirit as Crist because it seems to resonate with the ideas of Crist, as far as I understand them, and seems to want me to be loyal to the ideas of Crist like the ideas of honesty, authenticity, sincerity, bravery, kindness, discipline, constraint, joy, having fun, trust, and other such ideas. Given what I know and if I'm right, I'm not unique in having a portion of God's Spirit in me. As far as other consciousness are concerned, if you guys are out there, I believe within you is the same diving flame or spark as within me and we come from the same source and share a divine identity or at least the potential too. Much like Buddhism, the God in me sees the God in you. Therefore I believe that one can test my words or at least consider them and in consideration look inside and see if they can find the God in them speaking to them. I can share my theories and ideas and hypotheticals and what I've experienced as sincerely and as honestly as I am able, yet, at the end of the day, I really don't know. But there seems to be something to this whole Crist thing.

[Valo]

I knew “God” existed, He had spoken to me…

How did you determine that was God, as opposed to something self-generated, or an entirely different supernatural entity?

First, what do you experience, ever, that isn't self generated? So seems like a useless question.

I don't know if it's God. I'm assuming the name, but it seems to align with the ideas of Crist, insofar as I have understood Crist. I learn over time and by testing it.

So far I can only tell you what kinds of things it has said, done, etc. When you are in a loving family where there isn't perfection, per se, but not disfunction, then you have an atmosphere that is good. You will have things like mutual respect, kindness, discipline, fairness, justice, and mercy. As a child I experienced injustices that were pretty bad. As a child I felt so betrayed and hurt. It was such a horrible feeling to be treated that way. So, that seems to be not good. Injustice, that is. Seems that injustice causes pain and suffering to humans. And I didn't like it and I wouldn't call it good. So I judge injustices as evil and justice as good.

This voice is truthful, honest, and just and has always advocated that for me and for how I treat others. I think that's good.

[Marcus]

This is what I don't understand. You said you felt god's presence, felt comforted, felt god was with you, felt he spoke to you. None of that is ruled out of an LDS narrative, at any age.

What's your point? First in LDS narrative you can't have the companionship of the Holy Ghost when 3 years old or essentially from life. I've had that gift since birth. Second, in no instance when I was three or six or seven was I thinking anything Mormon or was it in my mind. I was oblivious. These experiences happened. I just so happen to have been born into a LDS background.

Okay. You also wrote this, earlier:

...Yet the message of the Book of Mormon, insofar as it has not been edited, was meant to come forth as another witness of God's purposes and doctrine of salvation...

Of all the possible books you could have decided were from god, you have concluded the one from the religion that you were born into is the one from god, even though you are sure that the LDS religion has had no impact on the feelings you have experienced as coming from god. Do you see how unlikely it is that the LDS church has no impact on how you interpret your feelings?

My point is that while your beliefs are yours and you have the right to interpret them as you wish, your story is not believable to me. Your god does not exist for me, and your experiences all have very natural explanations, in my opinion.

But thank you for sharing your feelings and experiences, it has been very interesting to read. I hope you appreciate reading others' points of view as well, as you will find a fascinating variety of stories and backgrounds here.

One last question, why do you use the spelling 'crist'?

[Everybody Wang Chung]

I just so happen to have been born into a LDS background.

[huckelberry]

The religion we are taught as children is the language we learn to understand and express experience. Some versions may be more helpful than others. Some might drag along more outdated assumptions than others but to think in terms of right ones and wrong ones kind of misses the point.