The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

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drumdude
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The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by drumdude »

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1094016
The nine people who were killed and the three who were injured when a plane went down in rough weather conditions in South Dakota were all part of a beloved and prominent Idaho family that lost members of four generations in the crash.

Brothers Jim and Kirk Hansen, the founders of Kyäni, which sells health products and nutritional supplements, were killed in the Saturday afternoon crash near Chamberlain, according to a statement from Kyäni's president Travis Garza. The brothers were also executives of Conrad & Bischoff, a petroleum products distributor, and KJ’s Super Stores.
Initial reports made it sound like an act of nature, but when you watch the video breakdown of what happened you quickly discover it’s that unique Mormon businessman mindset that got everyone killed:

https://youtu.be/DFdtL1utL6M

This dangerous type of attitude is so prevalent in the Mormon church. It’s completely unsurprising to me that this type of person would so cavalierly put their entire family at risk. After all, Heavenly Father has blessed them and their moneymaking scheme, how could he let a little ice on their airplane stop them?
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Gadianton
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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by Gadianton »

Another one for the Hitchens files.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by Chap »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 4:33 pm
Initial reports made it sound like an act of nature, but when you watch the video breakdown of what happened you quickly discover it’s that unique Mormon businessman mindset that got everyone killed:
I have had some flight training, and although I do not hold a pilot's licence (I never tried to get one, since it was very unlikely I would own a plane), I do know something about the easiest ways to kill yourself and your passengers when in the air.

A very good way to do that is to ignore warnings of an incipient stall, and pull the nose up instead of lowering it to increase airspeed and decrease attack angle, and hence increasing lift back to a level sufficient to keep the airplane from falling out of the sky. Astonishingly, despite a built in stall warning system that kept on trying to lower the nose as he took off at an unusually steep angle (in a snowstorm, with ice accumulated while on the ground still on the tail and its control surfaces), the pilot kept on yanking the nose up. Oh, and did I mention the aircraft was overloaded, and tail-heavy? It went into an unrecoverable stall and crashed shortly after takeoff, killing several generations of the family, including the pilot.

The pilot had been warned of the impending very bad weather conditions by the man from whom this family had been renting a hunting cabin. "We can put you up here for an extra night", he said. The answer "No thanks, we need to get home tomorrow". The ground control at the airfield pointed out that the runway was covered in uncleared snow and repeatedly suggested that takeoff under these conditions was unwise. But the pilot knew better - or maybe his family refused to accept that they might have to get home a day late.

A horrible story.
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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by drumdude »

You can just imagine the prayer he said before takeoff, and I’m sure he truly believed Mormon God would outweigh the laws of physics… a very sad and dangerous worldview.
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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

What a horrible and completely avoidable tragedy.

Don't be surprised if this becomes a faith promoting story at the next General Conference.

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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by Moksha »

If only the pilot had put his should to the wheel with 4-5 knots greater acceleration and a lesser angle of ascent (there was no required steeple height to ascend to) he might not have stalled out.

Also waiting an extra day for the storm to abate and more thoroughly cleaning the ice off of the plane would help. Not trying to bring 12 members of a large Mormon family in a ten-seat airplane would show better discernment.
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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by Marcus »

Chap wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 5:47 pm
drumdude wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 4:33 pm
Initial reports made it sound like an act of nature, but when you watch the video breakdown of what happened you quickly discover it’s that unique Mormon businessman mindset that got everyone killed:
I have had some flight training, and although I do not hold a pilot's licence (I never tried to get one, since it was very unlikely I would own a plane), I do know something about the easiest ways to kill yourself and your passengers when in the air.

A very good way to do that is to ignore warnings of an incipient stall, and pull the nose up instead of lowering it to increase airspeed and decrease attack angle, and hence increasing lift back to a level sufficient to keep the airplane from falling out of the sky. Astonishingly, despite a built in stall warning system that kept on trying to lower the nose as he took off at an unusually steep angle (in a snowstorm, with ice accumulated while on the ground still on the tail and its control surfaces), the pilot kept on yanking the nose up. Oh, and did I mention the aircraft was overloaded, and tail-heavy? It went into an unrecoverable stall and crashed shortly after takeoff, killing several generations of the family, including the pilot.

The pilot had been warned of the impending very bad weather conditions by the man from whom this family had been renting a hunting cabin. "We can put you up here for an extra night", he said. The answer "No thanks, we need to get home tomorrow". The ground control at the airfield pointed out that the runway was covered in uncleared snow and repeatedly suggested that takeoff under these conditions was unwise. But the pilot knew better - or maybe his family refused to accept that they might have to get home a day late.

A horrible story.
Yes it is. On a recent vacation, I met a person who coincidentally was from where I grew up, was a long time pilot, and had been involved with the agency that, many decades ago, spent many hours and days searching for the small plane that went down with one of my family members in it. I thanked her and her agency for this help, and for helping so many others over the years. Sincerely, this agency in my home state is composed of many, many truly heroic people.

During the conversation she said that after all her years of experience she, under no circumstances, will pilot or get in a small plane with another pilot if they have been informed of adverse weather and the recommendation is to postpone flight. Seems like a no-brainer, but far too many fatal crashes show us that apparently, it is not.

There is simply no reason to ignore facts, she said. She said she tells her students to always envision the worst possible thing happening given the weather, amount of light, location, etc., and then to plan your flight by assuming that will happen.

We didn't directly discuss religion, but I got the distinct feeling that a belief that god will protect you because you are special is a reason for flying in bad weather that she would have found laughable.
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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by toon »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 4:33 pm
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1094016
The nine people who were killed and the three who were injured when a plane went down in rough weather conditions in South Dakota were all part of a beloved and prominent Idaho family that lost members of four generations in the crash.

Brothers Jim and Kirk Hansen, the founders of Kyäni, which sells health products and nutritional supplements, were killed in the Saturday afternoon crash near Chamberlain, according to a statement from Kyäni's president Travis Garza. The brothers were also executives of Conrad & Bischoff, a petroleum products distributor, and KJ’s Super Stores.
Initial reports made it sound like an act of nature, but when you watch the video breakdown of what happened you quickly discover it’s that unique Mormon businessman mindset that got everyone killed:

https://youtu.be/DFdtL1utL6M

This dangerous type of attitude is so prevalent in the Mormon church. It’s completely unsurprising to me that this type of person would so cavalierly put their entire family at risk. After all, Heavenly Father has blessed them and their moneymaking scheme, how could he let a little ice on their airplane stop them?
You don’t know the attitude. You don’t know what anyone’s motive was. It’s tragic. But to jump to some “arrogant Mormon A-type” attitude is pure speculation. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It was such a tragedy. One that is admittedly personal. It’s one that I hate when used to purposes like this.

I would say “Screw you” but I suspect that may be edited out here.

Edit to add that I didn’t use the word “screw.”
drumdude
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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by drumdude »

toon wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:46 am
drumdude wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2024 4:33 pm
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1094016

Initial reports made it sound like an act of nature, but when you watch the video breakdown of what happened you quickly discover it’s that unique Mormon businessman mindset that got everyone killed:

https://youtu.be/DFdtL1utL6M

This dangerous type of attitude is so prevalent in the Mormon church. It’s completely unsurprising to me that this type of person would so cavalierly put their entire family at risk. After all, Heavenly Father has blessed them and their moneymaking scheme, how could he let a little ice on their airplane stop them?
You don’t know the attitude. You don’t know what anyone’s motive was. It’s tragic. But to jump to some “arrogant Mormon A-type” attitude is pure speculation. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It was such a tragedy. One that is admittedly personal. It’s one that I hate when used to purposes like this.

I would say “Screw you” but I suspect that may be edited out here.

Edit to add that I didn’t use the word “screw.”
You must not have been around many Mormons who were peddling their MLM scams to all the gullible members of their wards. It’s a very specific type of person, and I’m grateful you are ignorant of that.

In other words, back at ya.
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Re: The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

Post by Marcus »

I don't know, toon, the facts look like the "arrogant Mormon 'Type A' mindset" was definitely in the house.

From transcript of plane audio at 12:17:
...Father in Heaven we
ask for a special blessing now that we take off in this
not so great weather and that (Thy) will watch over and
protect us.
impress upon the mind of @ [pilot] that he
might know how best to travel this course that we are
about to do and we are thankful for this airplane and
ask that You will watch over and protect us. *...
In this part, as far as I can tell, 'APT' is the tower, 'RDO-1' is the pilot, 'HOT-1' is another voice from the plane. After tower asked several times if the pilot got the weather report and status, there was this:
12:29:34.4
APT it don't look good to me I don't know what you guys are thinkin'.
12:29:37.6
RDO-1 uh is the runway in good condition?
12:29:40.3
APT I would say I can't hardly keep up.
12:29:43.2
RDO-1 aright I'll be okay...five six kilo juliet.
12:29:46.6
APT what's that?
12:29:47.8
RDO-1 uh we're gonna be just fine...uh I'll go uh backtaxi three one
and we'll uh take off outta here...six kilo juliet.
12:29:54.4
APT 'kay * the runway is not clear.
12:29:57.8
RDO-1 oh I thought you had the - oh - uh let me - let me backtaxi down
and look at it then I'll be back.
12:30:06.2
APT (why) you guys are crazy...I got berms on this thing - I gotta
get the snow outta here.
12:30:25.0
HOT-1 (wonder) what he's been doin’ for the last two hours.
12:30:28.2
APT that don't look good to me.
Here's the timeframe:
The recording began at 12:14:26 and the transcript began at 12:14:55. The engine was
powered on at 12:19:02, taxi out began at 12:29:05, and the takeoff roll began at 12:31:59.
The stall warning sounded shortly after, at 12:32:29. Sounds similar to impact were heard
at 12:33:01. The recording ended shortly thereafter at 12:33:03.
All quotes from:
https://s3-assets.eastidahonews.com/wp- ... SE-Rel.pdf

And from the accident report:
...The pilot and passengers flew to Chamberlain Municipal Airport (9V9) the day before the accident, arriving about 0927. The airplane then remained parked outside on the ramp.

A representative of a local lodge reported that the pilot and passengers stayed overnight. The morning of the accident, the pilot and one passenger stayed back while everyone else went hunting. The representative took the pilot and passenger to the airport to check on the airplane. The pilot thought there would be favorable weather between 1130 and 1430. They took a ladder from the lodge and stopped at a local hardware store to buy isopropyl alcohol. The pilot and passenger worked for about 3 hours to remove the snow and ice that had accumulated on the airplane overnight. The representative noted that the ladder they brought from the lodge was approximately 7 feet tall and did not reach to the top of the tail on the airplane. The pilot stated that they needed to get home, that the airplane was 98% good, and the remaining ice would come off during takeoff. The lodge representative recalled that it was snowing hard at the time the pilot took off.

...The airplane was approved for day/night operations under visual and instrument flight rules, including flight into known icing conditions. The accident airplane was configured with two flight crew seats and eight passenger seats (a total of ten seats). However, twelve individuals were on board during the accident flight and none of them qualified as lap children (less than 2 years of age) under Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations.

An estimated weight & balance calculation for the accident flight indicated that the airplane was about 107 lbs. over the approved maximum gross weight. Center of gravity (CG) calculations indicated that the airplane was loaded 3.99 inches to 5.49 inches beyond the aft CG limit.

...An image study of photos and video footage revealed accumulated precipitation, presumably snow, on the upper surface of the horizontal stabilizer and on the vertical stabilizer with icicles present on the horizontal stabilizer bullet fairing with the airplane parked on the airport ramp and as it began to taxi before the accident takeoff.

...Surface observations indicated low instrument flight rules (LIFR) conditions existed about the time of the accident. The observation taken at 1215 noted light snow; however, moderate snow was observed at 1235. Atmospheric sounding data indicated that moderate or greater airframe icing conditions were likely from the surface to 11,500 ft mean sea level.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/05/l ... us-pc.html
[all bolding added by me]
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