CWK: Are Donald Trump and Joseph Smith Similar?

[Kishkumen]

This was a special request from Analytics. I say that so he can share the blame.

https://youtu.be/eItqSOQs6Cc?si=5ZZWcCSY_1qjZZ3I

By request, I am holding forth on the ways that Donald Trump and Joseph Smith are similar and dissimilar. Hopefully this doesn't get me into too much trouble. I try to be fair, but I also can't help but reveal some of my opinions. If something thought provoking is said along the way, maybe it was worth it.

And I really do try to be fair here. I doubt fans of either Smith or Trump will be exactly happy with it, but I had fun doing it.

[Gadianton]

I think one of the good points you made that isn't discussed much is the positive thinking mentality. That's probably their biggest similarity. One difference is that Joseph Smith was an actual ladies man. Wrong as he may have been, women found him attractive. Trump resorts to rape or paying. Along those same lines, Smith was a positive hero, Trump is a negative hero. Part of that isn't just being bad, but he's a buffoon.

I don't think they are both cult leaders. I started a thread a while back on why I think Mormonism is a cult. I do not think MAGA or Trump supporters in general are part of a cult. Trump is a cult of personality, of course. But he's the guy to "unite the right" so to speak, in other words, people who are very different can find their place under Trump. You can be a neo-Nazi who hates Trump because he's not extreme enough, but you're still a Trumper in the end, or you can be a rich guy who only cares about taxes. The folks wearing all the MAGA gear are one stripe, and they can't even fill a fraction of a stadium anymore.

[Kishkumen]

I think one of the good points you made that isn't discussed much is the positive thinking mentality. That's probably their biggest similarity.

Why, thank you, Gad. That came to me in the moment. I was curious to see how persuasive it would be.

One difference is that Joseph Smith was an actual ladies man. Wrong as he may have been, women found him attractive. Trump resorts to rape or paying.

Yes and no. There are women who found Smith attractive and wanted to be with him willingly. There are others he manipulated using the promise of eternal salvation. Some refused him flat out, and so he savaged their reputations. I see more in common with Trump here than you do.

Similarly, I think there are those who are genuinely attracted to Trump, but those are probably not women he would be genuinely interested in. He wants prizes, not partners. That is why he needs to use his power, and that is probably what he likes to do. For him it is satisfying to use his power to win his female flesh prize. After all, he doesn't have genuine relationships like most of us.

Along those same lines, Smith was a positive hero, Trump is a negative hero. Part of that isn't just being bad, but he's a buffoon.

Maybe. I think there is a populist element in Smith's appeal in his time. His anti-intellectualism and plain speaking about the gospel are part of the appeal. At a time when people are suspicious of the learned thought leaders of society, including ministers, Smith comes with his unvarnished homespun inspiration from God to put the world to rights.

I don't think they are both cult leaders. I started a thread a while back on why I think Mormonism is a cult. I do not think MAGA or Trump supporters in general are part of a cult. Trump is a cult of personality, of course. But he's the guy to "unite the right" so to speak, in other words, people who are very different can find their place under Trump. You can be a neo-Nazi who hates Trump because he's not extreme enough, but you're still a Trumper in the end, or you can be a rich guy who only cares about taxes. The folks wearing all the MAGA gear are one stripe, and they can't even fill a fraction of a stadium anymore.

I tried to remain non-committal on this point. I am actually not a big fan of Steven Hassan. Not that I think he is a bad guy, or anything. He is a very smart, kind, and well-intentioned fellow. I just don't think he is right about a lot of things. I don't think he really does get the Trump thing. That said, I learn useful stuff from listening to him hold forth on the topic of cults. As you know, I am not committed to the blanket usefulness of the word cult, but I concede that it has *some* usefulness in popular parlance to protect people from religious extremism.

[drumdude]

Are there other authors who have written about Trump’s relationship with the New Thought Movement? This is the first I’m hearing about it, and I’d love to learn more.

[Kishkumen]

Are there other authors who have written about Trump’s relationship with the New Thought Movement? This is the first I’m hearing about it, and I’d love to learn more.

https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/server/api/ ... 5d/content

Donald Trump’s relationship with Peale is not a secret, even if it is not often discussed. Peale and Trump shared mutual admiration for each other; Peale had said that Donald Trump was his best student; Trump has credited everything he knows about business to Peale.11 Trump has waxed nostalgic for Peale, praising his commanding presence and authority in the church. During the 2016 presidential campaign, Trump claimed membership at Peale’s Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, a claim which the church denied; Trump apparently ended his connection with the church after Peale’s death; Trump’s parents’ funerals were both held at Marble Collegiate Church; one of Trump’s marriages was officiated by Peale at Marble Collegiate.12

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/1 ... GGSLRBV4ZA

At the end of the nineteenth century, strands of the new science of psychology came together with religious and esoteric currents to convince a growing number of people they could use their imaginations to create alternative worlds in which pain and suffering ceased and prosperity was within the grasp of anyone who thought positively enough.1 These ideas coalesced in the movement that came to be known as New Thought (Haller, 2010; Horowitz, 2014; Martin, 2015; Satter, 1998). While initially a white middle-class phenomenon, New Thought quickly spread and attracted individuals from all classes and ethnicities. Marcus Garvey (1887–1940) and Father Divine (1879–1965) created black versions, which, in Father Divine’s case, integrated whites and African Americans in what grew from a small African American congregation in the United States to a multiracial, inter- national organisation. On the basis of a sermon by Father Divine entitled ‘Accen- tuate the Positive and Eliminate the Negative’, Johnny Mercer and Harlan Arlen wrote the popular song ‘Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive’, which was performed by Bing Crosby and the Andrew sisters in 1944 and nominated for the ‘Acad- emy Award for Best Original Song’ the following year. From its modest begin- nings, New Thought spread globally throughout the twentieth century and until today in the form of New Age, Unity, and Prosperity churches and institutions promoting New Age and New Thought teachings (Sutcliffe, 2003; Haller, 2012; Anderson and Whitehouse, 2003). In 1952, Norman Vincent Peale (1898–1993) published The Power of Positive Thinking, which repackaged New Thought in a catchy phrase and sold more copies in the United States than any nonfiction book except the Bible (Lane, 2016). Most people are not aware that Donald Trump’s father, Fred Trump, joined Peale’s Marble Collegiate Church in New York City.

[Gadianton]

Some refused him flat out, and so he savaged their reputations. I see more in common with Trump here than you do.

I cede the point.

Maybe. I think there is a populist element in Smith's appeal in his time. His anti-intellectualism and plain speaking about the gospel are part of the appeal.

That's interesting, I honestly don't know enough about EMH to feel confident here.

As you know, I am not committed to the blanket usefulness of the word cult, but I concede that it has *some* usefulness in popular parlance to protect people from religious extremism

you may have me here also, because when I responded, I had in mind my private theory of cults and Mormonism itself qualifies, but Mormonism today doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Smith himself. I'd be less confident when speaking of Smith himself, which is the topic. Comparing how people of the time responded to Smith, how he influenced them, and comparing that to Trump.

Oh, I forgot to mention the other part that was very perceptive that I had never thought about, that Joseph "shared the wealth" as it were with his close followers in terms of polygamy etc. This is a great topic, actually, to what extent was Joseph a one-way street? Trump seems excessively so. In fact, one of Trump's major ploys is his vast experience shielding himself with lawyers. And he always has a way out to avoid personal responsibility and send his friends to prison without a second thought. His followers seem to think it's worth the risk. It might be that "positive thinking" again, like-minded followers get in on the grift thinking they'll be okay. But I am curious to what extent Joseph threw his associates under the bus to save himself?

[drumdude]

Are there other authors who have written about Trump’s relationship with the New Thought Movement? This is the first I’m hearing about it, and I’d love to learn more.

https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/server/api/ ... 5d/content

Donald Trump’s relationship with Peale is not a secret, even if it is not often discussed. Peale and Trump shared mutual admiration for each other; Peale had said that Donald Trump was his best student; Trump has credited everything he knows about business to Peale.11 Trump has waxed nostalgic for Peale, praising his commanding presence and authority in the church. During the 2016 presidential campaign, Trump claimed membership at Peale’s Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, a claim which the church denied; Trump apparently ended his connection with the church after Peale’s death; Trump’s parents’ funerals were both held at Marble Collegiate Church; one of Trump’s marriages was officiated by Peale at Marble Collegiate.12

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/1 ... GGSLRBV4ZA

At the end of the nineteenth century, strands of the new science of psychology came together with religious and esoteric currents to convince a growing number of people they could use their imaginations to create alternative worlds in which pain and suffering ceased and prosperity was within the grasp of anyone who thought positively enough.1 These ideas coalesced in the movement that came to be known as New Thought (Haller, 2010; Horowitz, 2014; Martin, 2015; Satter, 1998). While initially a white middle-class phenomenon, New Thought quickly spread and attracted individuals from all classes and ethnicities. Marcus Garvey (1887–1940) and Father Divine (1879–1965) created black versions, which, in Father Divine’s case, integrated whites and African Americans in what grew from a small African American congregation in the United States to a multiracial, inter- national organisation. On the basis of a sermon by Father Divine entitled ‘Accen- tuate the Positive and Eliminate the Negative’, Johnny Mercer and Harlan Arlen wrote the popular song ‘Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive’, which was performed by Bing Crosby and the Andrew sisters in 1944 and nominated for the ‘Acad- emy Award for Best Original Song’ the following year. From its modest begin- nings, New Thought spread globally throughout the twentieth century and until today in the form of New Age, Unity, and Prosperity churches and institutions promoting New Age and New Thought teachings (Sutcliffe, 2003; Haller, 2012; Anderson and Whitehouse, 2003). In 1952, Norman Vincent Peale (1898–1993) published The Power of Positive Thinking, which repackaged New Thought in a catchy phrase and sold more copies in the United States than any nonfiction book except the Bible (Lane, 2016). Most people are not aware that Donald Trump’s father, Fred Trump, joined Peale’s Marble Collegiate Church in New York City.

Thanks!

[Kishkumen]

Thanks!

You are most welcome!

[Kishkumen]

Oh, I forgot to mention the other part that was very perceptive that I had never thought about, that Joseph "shared the wealth" as it were with his close followers in terms of polygamy etc. This is a great topic, actually, to what extent was Joseph a one-way street? Trump seems excessively so. In fact, one of Trump's major ploys is his vast experience shielding himself with lawyers. And he always has a way out to avoid personal responsibility and send his friends to prison without a second thought. His followers seem to think it's worth the risk. It might be that "positive thinking" again, like-minded followers get in on the grift thinking they'll be okay. But I am curious to what extent Joseph threw his associates under the bus to save himself?

I confess to being happy about that part myself. Undoubtedly he threw people under the bus, such as John C. Bennett, for example. Of course, Bennett was a rogue and a con artist, and probably much more exploitative and amoral than Smith.

[hauslern]

I found some details in the book Solemn Covenant Book by B. Carmon Hardy especially a diary entry by William Clayton. Clayton reported that his wife objected to his decision to take another wife. Smith's response according to Clayton was "You have the right to all you can get" Smith's father had an alcohol problem which must have affected the family. I think Bushman said Smith made his father the first patriarch perhaps out of shame . Trump according to Mary Trump had a real dysfunctional family influenced by cruelty of her grandfather Fred. There are currently a number of advertisements from women who claim Trump assaulted them. Are they ALL lying? Watch how he laughs and gestures scenes where Trump is chatting with Epstein. (I assume they were not talking about the weather) . Smith was sealed to teenage brides. Trump thought it was his right to enter the room where teenage contestants were changing. How did Smith react to those who rejected his advances? Smith claimed to Zina Huntington that an angel threatened to slay him with a flaming sword if he did not introduce polygamy. Smith had a wife Emma to deal with the problem while Trump has Melania If you are interested in Trump family dynamics watch Mary Trump's interviews regarding her new book.