LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

[drumdude]

I had the pleasure of visiting a United Methodist church service this morning. All I knew about Methodism was that Joseph and his family had been nominal members before he created his own religion.

I was surprised to discover what seemed to be a small struggling congregation, and this was not in a very small town. The average age was probably 65, and people did not fill the pews of the large church like they would in a local Catholic Church.

The message of the pastor and his assistants was overwhelming: “everyone is loved and included period.” It was clear there was an overt undertone of LGBT acceptance. There was a planned lecture discussed about Jesus and Feminism. I really resonated with this progressive inclusive message, but I felt like this was out of place amongst the congregation of boomers.

So I decided to look up what the deal was. The United Methodist church leadership decided to fully embrace LGBT marriage and pastors. And it’s cost them over 25% of their members over the last 5 years.

This is very similar to the story of the Community of Christ. “Going woke” as conservatives critics call it, has profoundly negative consequences. It’s an unfortunate irony that following Christ like this ends up destroying Christian communities.

All of this to say, this is the kind of thing that reinforces the Mormon church’s hardline stance on LGBT issues. They feel like, and with good reason, that if they make major inclusive changes then they will endanger their religion. I think they may very well be correct about that, unfortunately.

[Marcus]

Did you write this, drumdude? Is this how you see the situation?

[drumdude]

Did you write this, drumdude? Is this how you see the situation?

Yes. And yes. I’m not a Methodist but I’m going off of the research I’ve done today since my visit. I’d love to hear from any Methodists that might be here. My wife and I are looking for congregations and will be visiting more in the area to hopefully find one that clicks.

I guess I just have come away from the experience with more sympathy for LDS leaders who are faced with making decisions about these issues. Their fears are not entirely unfounded, if they decided to embrace LGBT fully tomorrow then there would undoubtedly be extremely negative consequences for their congregations.

I wish we lived in a culture where this wasn’t the case. It was a bit depressing to think that following Jesus can kill church attendance.

[Marcus]

All I can say is that fostering hatred and exclusion because one thinks

1) that the haters and excluders not only comprise everyone not in the hated and excluded groups but also

2) because they outnumber the hated and excluded

is a management view based on evil.

It is a despicable way to view groups of human beings. I have no sympathy for religious leaders who think like this.

[Marcus]

. I wish we lived in a culture where this wasn’t the case...

You can find it. Looking within mainstream congregations that exclude is not a likely place to find it.

[drumdude]

All I can say is that fostering hatred and exclusion because one thinks

1) that the haters and excluders not only comprise everyone not in the hated and excluded groups but also

2) because they outnumber the hated and excluded

is a management view based on evil.

It is a despicable way to view groups of human beings. I have no sympathy for religious leaders who think like this.

I guess I see it like a spectrum. There are degrees of hatred and exclusion, and degrees of love and inclusion. And some churches are moving faster or slower along that spectrum.

I think most churches are making slow but steady progress on the issues, and this is just an example of moving too fast for most people to accept. If I did my math right, most of the boomers in the congregation today were in their 20s and 30s in the 70s and 80s.

That was when the LGBT movement was just starting to gain widespread attention. Fast forward a few decades and you’ll have people who grew up in the 90s and 00’s who grew up with inclusive LGBT values.

I’m hopeful that as more time passes, this phenomenon will fade and including LGBT people won’t be controversial at all.

[drumdude]

. I wish we lived in a culture where this wasn’t the case...

You can find it. Looking within mainstream congregations that exclude is not a likely place to find it.

Yes but in practice the most inclusive congregations seem to be struggling. I’ve looked at Community of Christ, and now this Methodist church. There is a shocking lack of young families. Especially after I was in the Mormon church so long, where young families were half or more of the congregation.

[Gadianton]

Religion, in the way that anybody understand it today, is fundamentally exclusionary. Monotheism didn't arise from first-cause logic, it aped that logic long after the fact of its existence. Monotheism is the decided rejection of all other cults aside from one's own. Its very core is intolerance. What it's intolerant about can change, but it must be intolerant about something. The mythical Jesus of love is a revised Jesus long after the fact. I suppose we can hold Christians to the mythical Jesus that they believe in, but I think Nietzsche was correct that the loving Jesus is a ploy, and so such a Jesus is probably an unstable component in religion as we know it.

That being said, you may find something that works if you just keep looking. My right-wing friend's church seems like a pretty cool place. It's a huge congregation and lots of young people and Boomers also. It's LGBQ friendly and they even have an outreach to Muslim refugees. Don't ask me how, but all the right-wingers I run into daily all go to this same church. Apparently the pastor has some off-the-charts charisma and everyone loves him, even though from time to time these folks mutter their disagreements or concerns about him. I'm positive there are Trump churches around here they could find, but they've stuck with this guy for years, ever since I've lived here. I'll see if I can find the name of the church and he's part of a network or just an independent guy doing his thing.

[drumdude]

Religion, in the way that anybody understand it today, is fundamentally exclusionary. Monotheism didn't arise from first-cause logic, it aped that logic long after the fact of its existence. Monotheism is the decided rejection of all other cults aside from one's own. Its very core is intolerance. What it's intolerant about can change, but it must be intolerant about something. The mythical Jesus of love is a revised Jesus long after the fact. I suppose we can hold Christians to the mythical Jesus that they believe in, but I think Nietzsche was correct that the loving Jesus is a ploy, and so such a Jesus is probably an unstable component in religion as we know it.

That being said, you may find something that works if you just keep looking. My right-wing friend's church seems like a pretty cool place. It's a huge congregation and lots of young people and Boomers also. It's LGBQ friendly and they even have an outreach to Muslim refugees. Don't ask me how, but all the right-wingers I run into daily all go to this same church. Apparently the pastor has some off-the-charts charisma and everyone loves him, even though from time to time these folks mutter their disagreements or concerns about him. I'm positive there are Trump churches around here they could find, but they've stuck with this guy for years, ever since I've lived here. I'll see if I can find the name of the church and he's part of a network or just an independent guy doing his thing.

I’d appreciate it. We live in an area with a mix of liberal and conservatives, from the rural suburbs to the city respectively. If there were just more (or really any) young people at this United Methodist church it would have been perfect.

[Marcus]

...I really resonated with this progressive inclusive message, but I felt like this was out of place amongst the congregation of boomers...

Not to this boomer! I know you are looking for younger people, but just realize there are plenty of us boomers out there that may look old but think similarly.