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Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:56 am
by Doctor Scratch
I noticed a rather surprising post on “SeN” recently, where Dr. Peterson decried the use of “Nazis” in heated political analysis. He writes:
I also very much dislike casual accusations of Nazism or fascist tendencies…. Such accusations are so potent that they should be used only very rarely and very carefully and only when almost unavoidable. They are a kind of “nuclear option” that should not be lightly deployed. I resent their use to stigmatize my neighbors, the members of my ward, and the apparent majority of American Latter-day Saints who voted for Donald Trump.
Wow…”nuclear option”? That seems serious. And yet, consider that the same person saying this has repeatedly referenced Hitler and the Nazis when “casually” attacking Gemli’s atheism. Did Gemli really deserve the “nuclear option”? No? Well how about temple critics?
See for yourself:
I was saddened to see how ugly the controversy over a proposed temple in Cody, Wyoming, has become, at least in some circles. A few commenters on the Facebook page of a group that bills itself as “Preserve Our Cody Neighborhoods” are calling for legal “war” with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and for a list of LDS-owned businesses to be boycotted. (Perhaps such businesses might be required to display, say, a yellow star, so that they will more easily identified?)
Huh. “Not deployed lightly”? I guess complaining about a proposed temple counts as a “serious” offense? Very interesting, in any case.
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:08 am
by Kishkumen
While I understand the hesitance to use the term Nazi, the term fascist should be used more frequently to describe those groups and ideologies that fit the definition of fascism. Why not call it as it is? Fascism is an ideology that has taken various kindred forms in places such as Spain, Italy, Romania, and Germany. MAGA is a fascist movement. It sits comfortably in the range of identified fascist movements.
Here is Umberto Eco's list of characteristics of fascism:
The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense, Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sale. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture, the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “[…] one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.
The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
The enemy is both weak and strong. “[…] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and Weaponry. “This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons—doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.”
Selective Populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
That is so close to MAGA that I see no point in denying the obvious. It if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is duck.
See
https://www.faena.com/aleph/umberto-eco ... g-fascists
For the longer article by Eco himself, see
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... ur-fascism
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:28 am
by Gadianton
I wonder why Dan thinks his Latter-day Saint neighbors would have seen it all coming had they lived in Germany during Hitler's rise to power? I mean, the Latter-day Saints who lived there didn't, why are his neighbors so different?
Using the atrocities committed against the Jews as a metaphor for the suffering of a church on the road to a trillion-dollar market cap is pretty hideous and disrespectful. In my opinion, there is a big difference between hyperbolically castigating someone as Hitler or a group as being Nazis, and hyperbolically comparing one's own suffering to that of the holocaust victims. It's totally different. I'm pretty sure I've never done that.
What I mean is if he wants to hyperbolically call this board or people on it Nazis, okay, whatever, but it's totally different to continue the allusion by suggesting that he or his friends, or Mormons in general, are like holocaust victims. That's just messed up.
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 3:35 am
by Doctor Scratch
Quite right, Dean Robbers.
Here’s the thing: pretty much every Jewish person—even the most privileged, sheltered Jew—has experienced some kind of scary anti-semitism at some point or another. But DCP has been producing written material for close to 50 years, and yet can you find a single anecdote in any of his writings where he actually suffered or was discriminated against due to being LDS? Mormonism, for him, has been one big, long cake walk, where he has been soaking up the benefits from day one. A cushy academic sinecure. Free travel across the globe. Lots of free meals. And no senior missions! This isn’t someone who’s part of a minority religious group that’s suffering under a cloud of terrifying discrimination. Instead, this is someone who’s found a niche that he can exploit for personal gain.
And that’s not to say that redemption is impossible. Remember that Oskar Schindler was originally “in it” for the sake of profit, but he eventually came around.
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 3:48 am
by Gadianton
Kish wrote:Here is Umberto Eco's list of characteristics of fascism:
Great list.
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 5:05 am
by Moksha
Did Dr. Peterson fail to note Trump's rants about how "those people" are polluting the "blood of America" and his frequent mention of executions toward the end of his campaign stops. If you couple that with the survey that found one-third, of the LDS also believe that "America's blood is being polluted".
He would be doing a greater service to his Church to talk the Saints out of this way of thinking, rather than defend it. Sometimes you need to stand up to pro-Trump donors for the greater good.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/11 ... atter-day/
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:03 am
by Philo Sofee
Moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2024 5:05 am
Did Dr. Peterson fail to note Trump's rants about how "those people" are polluting the "blood of America" and his frequent mention of executions toward the end of his campaign stops. If you couple that with the survey that found one-third, of the LDS also believe that "America's blood is being polluted".
He would be doing a greater service to his Church to talk the Saints out of this way of thinking, rather than defend it. Sometimes you need to stand up to pro-Trump donors for the greater good.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/11 ... atter-day/
Yes, and lets not forget Putin's call to Trump inaugurating "The New World Order." And Bruce R. McConkie's idea that the special people of God are only those of "believing blood" LITERALLY. The Nazis were about the blood. The Mormons are about the blood. Perhaps Jana Reiss's Salt Lake Tribune article got under his skin as well.
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 6:40 am
by Moksha
I know Dr. Peterson has a special fondness for Germany and Switzerland, but Nazi Germany was just a tiny part of it on the greater timeline. Why not refrain from any lure of this unfortunate past and concentrate on the fun-loving yodeling of the German-speaking people? Have a freshly baked pretzel and a stein of non-alcoholic Riesling wine.
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 8:37 am
by I Have Questions
Peterson just spent several million dollars lauding the guy who said…
Now then in the kingdom of God on the earth, a man who has has the Affrican blood in him cannot hold one jot nor tittle of preisthood
https://archive.org/details/CR100317B0001F0017
But let me tell you further. Let my see mingle with the seed of Cain, that brings the curse upon me, and upon my generations, - - we will reap the same rewards with Cain.
In the preisthood I will tell you what it will do. Where the children of God to mingle there seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the preisthood upon themselves but the entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it.
Brigham Young was akin to Hitler in his racial beliefs, but Peterson’s okay with that I guess, as he’s just made a film to promote Brigham Young as the Lord’s choice.
Re: Mopologetics and the Rhetoric of Nazism
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:06 pm
by Kishkumen
Gadianton wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2024 3:48 am
Kish wrote:Here is Umberto Eco's list of characteristics of fascism:
Great list.
Thank you, Dean!