So, arguing about…whether or not he was capable of actually writing the Book of Mormon, is like trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic after it sank, broke up on the sea floor and mostly rotted away.
I would disagree. I think that it is an all important question to ask. If the ship remains afloat it is much easier to arrange deck chairs.
So, arguing about…whether or not he was capable of actually writing the Book of Mormon, is like trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic after it sank, broke up on the sea floor and mostly rotted away.
I would disagree. I think that it is an all important question to ask. If the ship remains afloat it is much easier to arrange deck chairs.
Regards,
MG
I've got a torpedo for you then MG 2.0. Post #8 of my thread. Skin that-en pilgrim an I'll git you another.
Nobody gets to be a cowboy forever. - Lee Marvin/Monte Walsh
A very thoughtful comment was posted at SeN. I expect it will get either no reply or possibly a short sentence deferring to one of the proprietor’s friends.
Out of curiosity, is the divining power of the seer stones generally believed to reside in the stone or the wielder? The concept of using seer stones for magical purposes obviously predates Joseph Smith apparently using them to read the golden plates (he's recorded as putting seer stones in hats and gazing into them to divine the location of treasure or ore veins), and the practice of divining using magic stones predates Smith himself (lithomancy is an old and varied tradition, though the use of the hat is something I've only heard of in relation to Smith).
Given that, is it believed that the use of magical stones is some kind of property of the stones - something that ostensibly anyone with sufficient knowledge could do - or is it a divine blessing bestowed solely at the instance of Smith using the stones, unavailable to others?
If it's the case of the former, I'm curious if you know of any studies by members of the LDS into attempting to recreate Smith's apparent technology of lithomancy. I'd be curious at their findings.
If it's the case of the latter, though, it raises another obvious question. Was Joseph Smith a con artist?
This is irrespective of whether you believe he was a divinely ordained prophet or not. The redeemed scoundrel is an important Biblical archetype for a reason; it's entirely possible for Smith to have been a con artist and then, after a revelation, setting aside his past ways to seek redemption.
But it raises a large number of other questions. If you believe God granted Smith lithomancy to read the plates, did God also grant Smith lithomantic powers beforehand as well? Smith's court proceedings would seem to disagree with that, or at least suggest God was inconsistent in granting the power and Smith either lied or could not tell apart divine inspiration from his own confabulation.
Meanwhile, if you believe God didn't grant Smith the powers until he delivered revelations, that means Smith was a con artist. He might've believed his own hype - there's plenty of frauds who believe with utter sincerity that they do in fact have magical powers - but that means he was either susceptible to making himself believe what he wanted to believe or that he was a self-aware liar who tried to deceive people out of money.
You've talked before about an interest in studies examining humans for some kind of supernatural abilities, like ESP or mediumship. I'm just curious about whether you've also investigated methods of divination - particularly lithomancy. This seems like a very consequential question for the faith and how one examines the Book of Mormon.
A very thoughtful comment was posted at SeN. I expect it will get either no reply or possibly a short sentence deferring to one of the proprietor’s friends.
Out of curiosity, is the divining power of the seer stones generally believed to reside in the stone or the wielder? The concept of using seer stones for magical purposes obviously predates Joseph Smith apparently using them to read the golden plates (he's recorded as putting seer stones in hats and gazing into them to divine the location of treasure or ore veins), and the practice of divining using magic stones predates Smith himself (lithomancy is an old and varied tradition, though the use of the hat is something I've only heard of in relation to Smith).
Given that, is it believed that the use of magical stones is some kind of property of the stones - something that ostensibly anyone with sufficient knowledge could do - or is it a divine blessing bestowed solely at the instance of Smith using the stones, unavailable to others?
If it's the case of the former, I'm curious if you know of any studies by members of the LDS into attempting to recreate Smith's apparent technology of lithomancy. I'd be curious at their findings.
If it's the case of the latter, though, it raises another obvious question. Was Joseph Smith a con artist?
This is irrespective of whether you believe he was a divinely ordained prophet or not. The redeemed scoundrel is an important Biblical archetype for a reason; it's entirely possible for Smith to have been a con artist and then, after a revelation, setting aside his past ways to seek redemption.
But it raises a large number of other questions. If you believe God granted Smith lithomancy to read the plates, did God also grant Smith lithomantic powers beforehand as well? Smith's court proceedings would seem to disagree with that, or at least suggest God was inconsistent in granting the power and Smith either lied or could not tell apart divine inspiration from his own confabulation.
Meanwhile, if you believe God didn't grant Smith the powers until he delivered revelations, that means Smith was a con artist. He might've believed his own hype - there's plenty of frauds who believe with utter sincerity that they do in fact have magical powers - but that means he was either susceptible to making himself believe what he wanted to believe or that he was a self-aware liar who tried to deceive people out of money.
You've talked before about an interest in studies examining humans for some kind of supernatural abilities, like ESP or mediumship. I'm just curious about whether you've also investigated methods of divination - particularly lithomancy. This seems like a very consequential question for the faith and how one examines the Book of Mormon.
I cannot imagine any believing Mormon thinking there was some special power in the stone. Believers believe God revealed the translation. I am unaware of any believers thinking the stone had treasure finding powers. Neither stone nor stone wielder have any special power or magic.
I doubly doubt this post because I cannot remember any Biblical enthusiasm (or important archtype) for reformed scoundrels. It is something of a thing in American revival movements however. Perhaps somebody thinks it is a big Bible thing because of that.
... In the bishop's office when the bishop shared a quote by PPP the Spirit told me that PPP was the angel that brought the plates took them away and brought them back a year later. So it can be deduced that the 116 pages was really the complete manuscript that Martin Harris gave to his wife to read. And she traded it back to PPP on his way out of the area.
So first the Spirit tells me these things and later I find the verification ...
If Joseph were to do a Japanese conveyor belt sushi restaurant, I think he could easily do 15-16 plates. Translate those Reformed Egyptian nigiri with the help of some wasabi and pickled ginger.
A very thoughtful comment was posted at SeN. I expect it will get either no reply or possibly a short sentence deferring to one of the proprietor’s friends.
Out of curiosity, is the divining power of the seer stones generally believed to reside in the stone or the wielder? The concept of using seer stones for magical purposes obviously predates Joseph Smith apparently using them to read the golden plates (he's recorded as putting seer stones in hats and gazing into them to divine the location of treasure or ore veins), and the practice of divining using magic stones predates Smith himself (lithomancy is an old and varied tradition, though the use of the hat is something I've only heard of in relation to Smith).
Given that, is it believed that the use of magical stones is some kind of property of the stones - something that ostensibly anyone with sufficient knowledge could do - or is it a divine blessing bestowed solely at the instance of Smith using the stones, unavailable to others?
If it's the case of the former, I'm curious if you know of any studies by members of the LDS into attempting to recreate Smith's apparent technology of lithomancy. I'd be curious at their findings.
If it's the case of the latter, though, it raises another obvious question. Was Joseph Smith a con artist?
This is irrespective of whether you believe he was a divinely ordained prophet or not. The redeemed scoundrel is an important Biblical archetype for a reason; it's entirely possible for Smith to have been a con artist and then, after a revelation, setting aside his past ways to seek redemption.
But it raises a large number of other questions. If you believe God granted Smith lithomancy to read the plates, did God also grant Smith lithomantic powers beforehand as well? Smith's court proceedings would seem to disagree with that, or at least suggest God was inconsistent in granting the power and Smith either lied or could not tell apart divine inspiration from his own confabulation.
Meanwhile, if you believe God didn't grant Smith the powers until he delivered revelations, that means Smith was a con artist. He might've believed his own hype - there's plenty of frauds who believe with utter sincerity that they do in fact have magical powers - but that means he was either susceptible to making himself believe what he wanted to believe or that he was a self-aware liar who tried to deceive people out of money.
You've talked before about an interest in studies examining humans for some kind of supernatural abilities, like ESP or mediumship. I'm just curious about whether you've also investigated methods of divination - particularly lithomancy. This seems like a very consequential question for the faith and how one examines the Book of Mormon.
ABC has an astute observation that should make members uncomfortable.
Think of how different it might be if Moses was parting oceans or turning his staff into a snake long before God chose him as a prophet; if it was just something Moses could do.
This is key to Joseph's switch to liturgical tactics.
