How many plates did Joseph actually have?

[drumdude]

Recently many Mopologists have been dumping on Trent Horn for calling out the improbable nature of the gold plates. Trent claims it's ridiculous to think the whole text could have been produced on just 40 plates. Here is a short mopologist response video:

https://youtu.be/6bVG7HABdls

The video’s main argument is that the Book of Mormon was probably written on a very specific copper alloy which allowed from 300-600 individual plates upon which the Book of Mormon text could be written. It points to a paper by Jerry Grover in which he gives 3 scenarios:

1) 600 highly polished plates weighing 99 pounds.
2) Same as 1 but with 30% void space weighing 80lbs
3) Same as 1 but with 50% voice space weighing 58lbs
4) 300 thicker plates weighing 54lbs

This lightest case is 10lbs heavier than the "Heroic weight" prop that Dan Peterson had made for Witnesses. Also, notably, the prop that DCP made doesn't have anything close to 300 plates:

Knowing that filming the scene of Joseph running with the plates would require several hours, Paul Wuthrich was presented with the option of going with something lighter as a prop. He opted to use the two prop sets of plates that metallurgist Dave Baird had created, based on Baird’s careful research. Somewhat amusingly, one set came to be called the “non-hero set.” They weighed somewhere between thirty (30) and thirty-five (35) pounds. We’re more certain of the weight of the other set — unsurprisingly labeled the “hero set” — because Russell Richins weighed them himself. They came in at forty-five (45) pounds. In other words, at roughly the weight of the historical plates themselves.

https://vimeo.com/824199556/ecefc622ed
(11 minutes 16 seconds into the film)


But after all of this - the plates must have weighed more than they've ever been depicted and must have had many more leaves than ever depicted - the seer stone makes it all meaningless. Joseph Smith wasn't translating. In many cases he was writing down words that wouldn't have been created until hundreds of years later. With Early Modern English (Early Modern English) that wouldn't come about until many hundreds of years after the plates were supposedly carved. And then once Joseph was done not translating, the plates were themselves physically translated by some magic means back to Kolob.

Mormon apologetics is an absolute mess, and all they can do is try to hide each issue in a tiny box to isolate it from the larger picture that shows just how ridiculous it all is.

[MG 2.0]

So apologetics as a whole are a mess because The Witnesses movie may have portrayed the number of plates wrong?

Why does the seer stone “make it all meaningless”?

Why does the fact that Joseph used language from the modern era discount the validity of the translation/transmutation of what was on the plates?

Think about the power of A.I. in working with editing and ‘filling in’ and composing text from existing data being plugged into the system. Why are we hesitant to admit that God may be more powerful than A.I.? And that there are/were others willing to step in and help with the work. When we say, “God did it”, does that mean He did it all by his lonesome?

I think we need to be willing to think outside the box. Unless our minds are closed, of course.

I don’t know that I want to get sucked into being the focus of attention on another thread, but maybe this will help get things going for others.

Just trying to get the ball rolling. But I think I’ll sit this one out unless I can see something interesting going on that won’t just end up going in circles as huck recently put it in regards to some recent conversations.

Carry on. It will be interesting to read what others say even if my prediction that what is said will disallow for ‘God in the process’ approach.

Understood.

Oh, and thanks for the link, drumdude. I enjoyed the content.

Yes, I did watch it.

Best,
MG

[Marcus]

...But after all of this - the plates must have weighed more than they've ever been depicted and must have had many more leaves than ever depicted - the seer stone makes it all meaningless. Joseph Smith wasn't translating. In many cases he was writing down words that wouldn't have been created until hundreds of years later. With Early Modern English (Early Modern English) that wouldn't come about until many hundreds of years after the plates were supposedly carved. And then once Joseph was done not translating, the plates were themselves physically translated by some magic means back to Kolob.

Mormon apologetics is an absolute mess, and all they can do is try to hide each issue in a tiny box to isolate it from the larger picture that shows just how ridiculous it all is.

And even within the same issue, the mopologetic stories contradict.

Speaking of 'not-translated', have you noticed the new word used here lately: "transmuted" ????

I'm assuming that's just a fringe argument without much mopologetic support but still--that's quite a switch.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

They actually weighed nothing. So Joseph had no problem running with them.

Attacked by 3 different men that were evenly spaced out so they only attacked one at a time? Oh, they also all had guns but decided to only attack by hitting him with them instead of shooting? The whole story of Joseph Smith getting the plates sounds more like a John Wick movie scene than reality.

So many lies so little time.

[Moksha]

They actually weighed nothing.

So you are saying that fiction can be light reading.

[Marcus]

They actually weighed nothing.

So you are saying that fiction can be light reading.

Or... is he saying that friction can be flight defeating.

[Dr. Sunstoned]

I have never understood the apologist's perspective on this story. Apparently, Joseph Smith did not use the plates during the translation process; he only needed a rock and a hat. This seems to negate Moroni's effort to drag 60 pounds of gold from Central America to NY. Through hostile territory nonetheless. If we believe BY, he made a quick detour to Manti for some dedication work. Really?

Most religions have their founding myths and mystical experiences. But in most religions, members have an allowable margin of freedom or variation to believe or not to believe these things. In TSCC belief in Joseph Smith and his stories are required. At least they were when I last interviewed for a temple recommend twenty years ago.

[MG 2.0]

I have never understood the apologist's perspective on this story. Apparently, Joseph Smith did not use the plates during the translation process; he only needed a rock and a hat. This seems to negate Moroni's effort to drag 60 pounds of gold from Central America to NY. Through hostile territory nonetheless. If we believe BY, he made a quick detour to Manti for some dedication work. Really?

Most religions have their founding myths and mystical experiences. But in most religions, members have an allowable margin of freedom or variation to believe or not to believe these things. In TSCC belief in Joseph Smith and his stories are required. At least they were when I last interviewed for a temple recommend twenty years ago.

The plates were necessary. This has been discussed previously at other times and other places.

Just sayin’.

Look it up.

The plates are not brought up in the temple recommend interview. Most active and believing members, I would think, believe that the Book of Mormon’s origin is connected with actual plates that were compiled anciently.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

So apologetics as a whole are a mess because The Witnesses movie may have portrayed the number of plates wrong?

Why does the seer stone “make it all meaningless”?

Why does the fact that Joseph used language from the modern era discount the validity of the translation/transmutation of what was on the plates?

Think about the power of A.I. in working with editing and ‘filling in’ and composing text from existing data being plugged into the system. Why are we hesitant to admit that God may be more powerful than A.I.? And that there are/were others willing to step in and help with the work. When we say, “God did it”, does that mean He did it all by his lonesome?

I think we need to be willing to think outside the box. Unless our minds are closed, of course.

I don’t know that I want to get sucked into being the focus of attention on another thread, but maybe this will help get things going for others.

Just trying to get the ball rolling. But I think I’ll sit this one out unless I can see something interesting going on that won’t just end up going in circles as huck recently put it in regards to some recent conversations.

Carry on. It will be interesting to read what others say even if my prediction that what is said will disallow for ‘God in the process’ approach.

Understood.

Oh, and thanks for the link, drumdude. I enjoyed the content.

Yes, I did watch it.

Best,
MG

Bump

Some questions to answer?

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

So apologetics as a whole are a mess because The Witnesses movie may have portrayed the number of plates wrong?

Just part of a long history of getting it wrong, for example the church showing Smith pouring over the plates like a real translator instead of looking in a hat at a glowing rock.

Why does the seer stone “make it all meaningless”?

Because the translation accounts say that Joseph merely dictated the information on the stone. Are you saying God is so powerful that he can make a stone glow with words but so limited that the plates must be nearby to remind him what to show on the stone? Ridiculous, unless you’re an apologist.

Why does the fact that Joseph used language from the modern era discount the validity of the translation/transmutation of what was on the plates?

Because the translation method describes Joseph writing verbatim what was on the plates/stone. And being rebuked for doing it incorrectly.

Think about the power of A.I. in working with editing and ‘filling in’ and composing text from existing data being plugged into the system. Why are we hesitant to admit that God may be more powerful than A.I.? And that there are/were others willing to step in and help with the work. When we say, “God did it”, does that mean He did it all by his lonesome?

This isn’t the method used, historical accounts say God made the rock in the hat glow exactly what Joe should write.

I think we need to be willing to think outside the box. Unless our minds are closed, of course.

We have to entertain multiple self contradictory explanations at once to explain away how ridiculous the entire story is.

Oh, and thanks for the link, drumdude. I enjoyed the content.

Yes, I did watch it.

Always love to hear other opinions even if they disagree with my own!