The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

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sock puppet
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

Post by sock puppet »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:32 am
You can’t make this stuff up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

https://publicsquaremag.org/media-educa ... ith-doubt/

Apologists just cannot stop whining about the CES letter. Its success must be attributable to anything but its own merits.
In 1993, Adobe Systems led the programming competition with its Portable Document Format (PDF). After guarding it as intellectual property for fifteen years, Adobe displayed shrewd business logic in 2008 by offering the PDF as an open format (PDF 1.7)—allowing software developers worldwide to develop and provide tools for the creation, modification, viewing, and printing of PDF files if they adhered to Adobe’s original PDF specifications.

Also, in 2008, Adobe offered its Reader 2.0 as a free download. This enabled web designers and authors to offer their publications as PDF downloads with an accompanying link to the free PDF viewer. Readers could easily download both the app and the book or article and view the original text as it was designed to be read.

Advanced distribution capability. Soon other free PDF viewers became available, and popular Internet search engines incorporated them into their browsers (2).

A new world began to emerge, empowering individual authors and content creators to distribute their views instantly, in increasingly persuasive ways, across a mammoth distribution channel: the World Wide Web.

The reality is that before the early 2010s, it would have been difficult to widely distribute any computerized books or extensive articles such as The CES Letter. Documents circulated as Microsoft Word or WordPerfect files would have been susceptible to formatting changes when the files were opened, as well as alteration from other readers.
Maybe the .pdf lamentations are well placed. Imagine the home of a financially successful LDS. He pays his tithing. Goes to church, and the temple. Yada, yada, yada. He's heard from Brother So-and-so that down there at BYU there's an organization, FARMS, that was taking the mantle up to defend 'the Church' against the Tanners and other pesky FoMo's (not fear of missing out) and critics. The faithful tithepayer asks a few questions, and is given a phone number (later an e-mail address) to contact FARMS and get a subscription to the FARMS Review, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies--whatever. He gives his credit card, starts getting the quarterly installments. Placing each one on the shelf in the room where it will be sure to be seen by the home teachers, the neighbors and the bishop whenever they visit. It's not really cracked open, just placed on the shelf. After all, it looks pretty heady. Just by subscribing and placing each new issue in succession alongside the previous ones gives this tithepaying member assurance and of course, a warm feeling in the bosom that there no doubt within those unviewed pages the answers that stuff in the face of critics and FoMo's. Reading the Interpreter or Scripture Central online--reading! yikes--the tithepayer doesn't have time for that. No physical token to place on a shelf in the house to virtual signal that he believes that there are, within such pages, good refutations.

Then junior is sent a .pdf of the CES Letter. He starts reading it. Ouch. So, he asks dad where can sonny boy get the answers to these perplexing observations. It dawns on dad that he has those old issues otherwise collecting dust on the shelf since 2012 or before, and points his son in their direction. Then weeks later on a boring afternoon, the son starts looking. Reads an article. It doesn't set well. "Is this the best that the Church's scholars can do?" Doubts linger and gnaw at him. He goes on with high school. At college his freshman year, he doesn't enroll in institute. He breaks the news to mom and dad he's not going on a mission, which they suspected a bit when they caught wind he was going to a number of frat house parties--where, god forbid, there are women who will have fun.

Oh, those were the days. When their were physical, paper copies being added to the shelf, before a rascally treatise in .pdf form was going viral through email forwards and downloads from online. Just like Archie and Edith in the intro to each episode of All in the Family,

Boy the way Glen Miller played,
Songs that made the hit parade,
Guys like us we had it made,
Those were the days,
And you know who you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men,
Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again,
Didn't need no welfare states
Everybody pulled his weight,
Gee our old Lasalle ran great,
Those were the days
"Apologists try to shill an explanation to questioning members as though science and reason really explain and buttress their professed faith. It [sic] does not. ...faith is the antithesis of science and reason." Critic as quoted by Peterson, Daniel C. (2010) FARMS Review, Intro., v22:2,2.
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

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"Such individuals fail to understand that the new historical narrative has kept all the important aspects of church history (angels, gold plates, etc.) while shifting on less important aspects to improve our tactical position of deceptiveness."
Are apologists delusional that their efforts to throw up a smoke screen will obscure any of the real issues brought up by the CES Letter?

I think the apologists' efforts would have the greatest effect by building a well-animated hypnotic spinning wheel and directing members to a link where they can view it. Perhaps the disembodied voice of Elder Boyd K. Packer could recite over and over, "The Church is true".
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

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Gadianton wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2024 2:26 pm
Just barely woke up, under the weather; saw this with my signals crossed. Was thinking it was a new excuse for the Second Watson letter. As I'm preparing my cloak and top hat, I'm wondering how on earth a .pdf would help and a "published" essay on it? Could claim to see it and then lost because it was on the computer and deleted? were there .pdfs yet? Took me until the third paragraph before I realized how mixed up I was. My bad! lol.

This must be one of the strangest apologetics of all time. I love how the tone reflects all the anti-lit they've read over the years, "How was it possible for such diabolical screed to see the light of day? Let's get to the details of how this document, this hostile and damnable document, got into the hands of the good people of the church."

They need to be careful with this kind of argument. "Faith in the age of the printing press: How a perfect storm of random forces inflated the Bible beyond its merits."
I just heard about Ghost editors for the Book of Mormon. I consider that one of strangest apologetic excuses of all time.
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

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Rivendale wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:18 pm
I just heard about Ghost editors for the Book of Mormon. I consider that one of strangest apologetic excuses of all time.
Seriously, is it stranger than the First Vision (whichever version you prefer) or than Moroni (fka Nephi) having appeared once a year three times to Joseph Smith before then leading him to gold plates with a history of God's ancient people in the Americas for which there is no archaeological evidence, with magical spectacles that it turns out didn't even need to be used? Among people that buy into that, the Ghost editors apologetic is, well, sort of standard fare.
"Apologists try to shill an explanation to questioning members as though science and reason really explain and buttress their professed faith. It [sic] does not. ...faith is the antithesis of science and reason." Critic as quoted by Peterson, Daniel C. (2010) FARMS Review, Intro., v22:2,2.
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

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sock puppet wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:07 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:18 pm
I just heard about Ghost editors for the Book of Mormon. I consider that one of strangest apologetic excuses of all time.
Seriously, is it stranger than the First Vision (whichever version you prefer) or than Moroni (fka Nephi) having appeared once a year three times to Joseph Smith before then leading him to gold plates with a history of God's ancient people in the Americas for which there is no archaeological evidence, with magical spectacles that it turns out didn't even need to be used? Among people that buy into that, the Ghost editors apologetic is, well, sort of standard fare.
Folk magic beliefs mayvbe one level. Sinking treasures and Native American natives guarding it is another. But using a dead 16th century guy to be the liaison is really stretching it to excuse bad frontier language.
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

Post by Philo Sofee »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 12:09 am
sock puppet wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:07 pm
Seriously, is it stranger than the First Vision (whichever version you prefer) or than Moroni (fka Nephi) having appeared once a year three times to Joseph Smith before then leading him to gold plates with a history of God's ancient people in the Americas for which there is no archaeological evidence, with magical spectacles that it turns out didn't even need to be used? Among people that buy into that, the Ghost editors apologetic is, well, sort of standard fare.
Folk magic beliefs mayvbe one level. Sinking treasures and Native American natives guarding it is another. But using a dead 16th century guy to be the liaison is really stretching it to excuse bad frontier language.
This entire charade seems to me to be merely designed to answer a critic, not find out the truth of how it happened. But then, that always was the apologetic motif. They don't give a flip about the truth, just find answers!
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 12:57 am
Rivendale wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 12:09 am
Folk magic beliefs mayvbe one level. Sinking treasures and Native American natives guarding it is another. But using a dead 16th century guy to be the liaison is really stretching it to excuse bad frontier language.
This entire charade seems to me to be merely designed to answer a critic, not find out the truth of how it happened. But then, that always was the apologetic motif. They don't give a flip about the truth, just find answers!
Mormon apologetics is where Occam's razor goes to die.
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

Post by Marcus »

Dr. Sunstoned wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 6:25 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 12:57 am
This entire charade seems to me to be merely designed to answer a critic, not find out the truth of how it happened. But then, that always was the apologetic motif. They don't give a flip about the truth, just find answers!
Mormon apologetics is where Occam's razor goes to die.
Lol. Of embarrassment.
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

Post by Moksha »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2025 12:09 am
But using a dead 16th-century guy to be the liaison is really stretching it to excuse bad frontier language.
However, Professor Skousen received nearly half a million dollars to pursue this wacky idea. There is money to be made in LDS apologetics. So be creative. If you can forge some Nephite artifacts that fool the critics you will have it made.
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Re: The CES letter was popular because it was a PDF

Post by drumdude »

John Perry

Dan,
In an earlier entry, you and other commenters spent an inordinate amount of time and comments trying to correct one Markk on inaccuracies he claimed about you, your interaction with critics, and your participation with the World Table forum. You clearly explained how your stalkers hunted you and quickly and repeatedly gave you low scores on the forum, regardless of the content of your comments. Of course, we still see this phenomenon here in your blog (by thumbs-upping comments that criticize you), but without the scoring. Markk simply refused to display any kind of understanding of how this happens.

In an ironic (but not at all coincidental) continuation of this theme, your mention a couple of days ago about the CES Perfect Storm essay at Public Square Magazine has attracted several of the same usual suspects to that forum where they have predictably "thumbs downed" or "laffy faced" the article and comments they don't like. Our own Markk continues his passive aggressive non sequiturs over there in the comments section, thereby unwittingly (?) engaging in the very same wolfpack behavior you explained to him, but that he failed to acknowledge and recognize over here.

Thought you and others that engaged with him might want to know.

https://publicsquaremag.org/media-educa ... ith-doubt/
What a bizarre little post, but I’ve seen several like this there. Dan has mentioned this place so many times that his followers have sought it out even without knowing how to get here.

Be careful John, Mormon testimonies are fragile, dontcha know! :lol:
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