Joseph The Plagiarist

[Markk]

This video just popped up on my YouTube feed. Was Joseph so unlearned and un-read that he could not write the Book of Mormon? I would argue Givens just said no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTRxuTkSn0M

[Philo Sofee]

B.H. Roberts came to that conclusion decades ago as well........

[Markk]

What is ironic in a way, and which way I am not sure, is that Brian Hales in the article he co-authored, partly asserted that the CES letter was effective because of the non-aggressive apologetic from the NMI. Brian has recently campaigned heavily that Joseph was not educated and privy enough to have authored the Book of Mormon, so therefore it would have to have been inspired by God.

When Hales was writing about Joseph not being equipped to write the Book of Mormon is such a short time, and with all the complexities with in it, we had (in 2018) a private e-mail exchange about the subject. He was very adamant that he could not have used other works in "translating the Book of Mormon," mostly because of time constraints.

Now....given, that Givens being a Sr, research Fellow at the NMI is implying rather clearly, in my opinion, that Joseph plagiarized from other authors; does that support or contradict Hales assertion about weak apologetic from the Mopologists? I suppose it is dependent on what side of the fence you are sitting.

[huckelberry]

Markk, it is pleasant to be reminded of the fact that Joseph Smith encouraged learning and finding the wisdom in many places. I remember being taught about that in the church from at least some people. Perhaps not everybody as those intelligent dimensions of Joseph are not always reflected in church attitudes. They can be and the church has people who respect learning.

I did not hear anything about plagiarism in the presentation. Being aware of and influenced by other people is true of all humans. Such influence is necessary in order for a person to think. Yes sometimes people imagine portraying Joseph as ignorant and dull witted, dozing as he plowed the field. Those type of images are wrong and really are not necessary to believing Joseph if that is one's point of view.

[Markk]

Hey H-B,

Not directly, but in my opinion....very indirectly. If Joseph translated the Book of Mormon through the "gift and power of God," alone, then I don't see any room from his borrowing and being influenced by other authors and books. I get more and more, that the Givens', the Bushman's, and maybe even the brethren are heading that direction. However from the point of view of what I was taught, and what was defended by a very conservative FARM's type of mopology, there is no room that Joseph borrowed from the word of man, but directly from God. Hales is a hard liner on this.

I am in the process of listening to a more recent Mormon Stories podcast about the first vision accounts. The main guests are Dan Vogel and Sandra Tanner. They were discussing how a Mopologist stated that Fawn Brodie was a great writer and yet a poor historian. John Dehlin asked both Dan and Sandra for their opinion of that. The short version is that they agreed that Fawn was a tremendous historian, yet she did not have the information that later historians like Vogel had to work with. Basically that Fawn did the best she could with what she had. She wasn't wrong, but because of what folks like Sandra and Dan added to her research, we may see another Joseph. Dan commented that is how History works.

So my point is that I see the process of how Joseph translated, prophesized, and wrote.... in a similar lens. The old wooden position, with absolutely no flexibility; that Joseph translated solely by the gift an and power of God is not sustainable given the church becoming more transparent and more information and opinions coming out.

Personally I believe everything Joseph wrote is absorbed opinion, plagiarized commentary, the thoughts of others, and a huge imagination....which is probably why I easily read some of what Givens said, as Joseph plagiarizing. Especially his quick remark about Clark's commentary.

The other side of this is that Givens clearly shows Joseph was no dummy, and as he said, and I am paraphrasing but should be close.... "Lucy Mack Smith said that Joseph did not read widely, but deeply."

Right or wrong I hope this makes sense.

[Rick Grunder]

If I may be forgiven for quoting myself, here's my take on things after nearly half a century of following and analyzing such stuff in excruciating detail . . .

. . . the over-arching bugaboo of “plagiarism” is so misplaced and problematic (whether used by critics or defenders) that I never employ the term in Mormon Parallels. We are not talking about direct borrowing here. I would be greatly surprised if the founder of Mormonism saw or paid much attention to more than a few of the titles which appear in my bibliography. The thousands of points of comparison I raise in that work could not all have come together in some contorted harmony to control the consciousness of a budding Palmyra seer. Instead, the object of my engaging obsession is to assemble broad data painstakingly, laying groundwork for historians who will recognize treasures where they see them.
. . . . .
. . . When displaying that rich and available culture, it is sufficient simply to document the opportunity and illustrate the convenience. All of these things existed in Joseph Smith’s world. It is no miracle that he bumped into some of them along his way. Which ones and how, we cannot always say, but we can surely set a richly appointed stage for the pageant of that particular American prophet’s life.

. . . You have to want to find more. I prefer such a stance over stretching beyond my skis—or getting caught in speculation about specific influence or particular borrowing. As I began to express it even in the 1980s,

"It really does not matter whether Joseph Smith actually read any specific manuscript or book, because an entire culture is on display. We are scarcely dealing here with issues of pointed study or conscious borrowing. No single one of these writings was essential to the work of Joseph Smith, and this Bibliographic Source hangs upon no individual concept—upon no particular text. It is, rather, the very existence of the Mormon parallels which these sources display—in such great number, distribution, and uncanny resemblance to the literary, doctrinal and social structures which Joseph formed—which may command our attention."

--Joseph W. Geisner, ed., Writing Mormon History 2: Authors' Stories Behind Their Works (Salt Lake City: Signature Book, 2024); Chapter 6, Rick Grunder, "The Spirit and the Bride: Writing Mormon Parallels and 116," 115-18; final quoted paragraph above from Mormon Parallels: A Bibliographic Source, 37-38 (all editions).