Reasons people stopped attending church

[MG 2.0]

Oh yes, that can happen to truth. Particularly when it is considered not to be "useful".

Yup. That's hilarious. Nothing to see here.

Regards,
MG

[Chap]

Especially if one determines that ultimately God is behind it.

Person A: "God is ultimately behind <thing X>"

Person B: Uh-huh. Suppose you were wrong. In what way could we tell that you were wrong about what you have just stated to be the case?

If you are person A, and <thing X> was what your deity is claimed be behind, what would be your answer?

[MG 2.0]

Especially if one determines that ultimately God is behind it.

Person A: "God is ultimately behind <thing X>"

Person B: Uh-huh. Suppose you were wrong. In what way could we tell that you were wrong about what you have just stated to be the case?

If you are person A, and <thing X> was what your deity is claimed be behind, what would be your answer?

If I were wrong I might expect that the deity is in contradiction with what I observe in the natural world, what I would hope for in an eternal world, or what I expect out of a moral/ethical framework.

As it is, the deity that is worshipped and recognized within LDS belief fits within a framework that comports with my ideas concerning eternal progression, God's love for his children, co-existing with God before and after this mortal sojourn, moral imperatives in regard to relationships in the now and in the hereafter, the creative enterprise as a whole in which God works through natural means in the world, God creating a laboratory in which there is opposition in all things and there is a system by which we can progress as a result of making hard choices and exercising agency...I could go on and on.

Other deities that I'm aware of in the history of religious impulses throughout the history of mankind don't fit the complete framework that I personally would expect from a deity that I could worship and emulate in all respects. Knowing that I am created in the image of the creator gives me an understanding of my potential.

So if I'm wrong, I would have to question why the God worshipped within the LDS theological framework makes so much sense. It would be a real conundrum to work through.

I'm glad I don't have to worry about that.

I feel it unfortunate that there are those that live their lives with little or no recognition of a higher power. Or if they do, I wonder if they truly have spent the time and effort to understand and investigate whether or not their deity makes sense in the real world of nature and being.

But I realize that's an individual thing and an individual effort. Joseph Smith recognized this. Thus, I respect the beliefs or even non-beliefs that others have even though I might feel that they are either mistaken or have not 'seen the light', so to speak. Realizing, of course, that they may feel similarly towards me. Knowing that, I think that respect is due no matter what our beliefs are.

Most people, most of the time, are doing that best they can with what they've got. Including me, of course!

As I mentioned to drumdude, if you've got something better to offer other than an annihilistic outcome when we take our last breath (apparently Gadianton's view)...I'm open to it.

Got milk?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Especially if one determines that ultimately God is behind it.

Person A: "God is ultimately behind <thing X>"

Person B: Uh-huh. Suppose you were wrong. In what way could we tell that you were wrong about what you have just stated to be the case?

If you are person A, and <thing X> was what your deity is claimed be behind, what would be your answer?

Great question. Speaking for "god" gets tricky for humans.

[I Have Questions]

As I mentioned to drumdude, if you've got something better to offer other than an annihilistic outcome when we take our last breath (apparently Gadianton's view)...I'm open to it.

Why do you present the idea that there are only two choices - Mormonism or Atheism?

You’ve already been shown the data showing that most people who find something better than Mormonism haven’t chosen atheism. So why persist in presenting in an untrue fashion?

If you are open to alternatives (which you’re absolutely not) then ditch Mormonism for a full year and live as a Buddhist. Buddhism reports 500 million followers. So it’s obviously exponentially more uplifting than Mormonism.

[Chap]

As I mentioned to drumdude, if you've got something better to offer other than an annihilistic outcome when we take our last breath (apparently Gadianton's view)...I'm open to it.

It's not a question of me 'offering' you anything. It is a question of what is the case.

[Chap]

Peripheral.

Suppose I ask whether what the Book of Mormon says happened, actually happen, I mean did "ancient Jews build boats and sail to America"? Is that peripheral?

Did Joseph Smith really find ancient gold plates, which bore writings in 'Reformed Egyptian', a language which Smith was given a miraculous power to translate into English (using "translate" in its current and literal sense)? Is that peripheral?

To the four fold mission of the church? Yes.

To the underlying historicity of events? No. But on these two issues you mention, along with many others, there is a wide and varied amount of discussion and controversy that is unsettled and open to further exploration and determination of the actual facts.

That the four fold purpose/mission of the church should be scrapped until all is known would seem to be rather unreasonable. Especially if one determines that ultimately God is behind it.

Regards,
MG

Er ... if you have a religion based on revelations by a man who tells us that he is a prophet of a deity, and who takes it on himself to give us revelations that (he says) come with the authority of that deity, then it really matters a lot if it turns our that claims made by him about the world we live in appear to be false.

And that is the challenge facing the followers of Smith.

[I Have Questions]

To the four fold mission of the church? Yes.

To the underlying historicity of events? No. But on these two issues you mention, along with many others, there is a wide and varied amount of discussion and controversy that is unsettled and open to further exploration and determination of the actual facts.

That the four fold purpose/mission of the church should be scrapped until all is known would seem to be rather unreasonable. Especially if one determines that ultimately God is behind it.

Regards,
MG

Er ... if you have a religion based on revelations by a man who tells us that he is a prophet of a deity, and who takes it on himself to give us revelations that (he says) come with the authority of that deity, then it really matters a lot if it turns our that claims made by him about the world we live in appear to be false.

And that is the challenge facing the followers of Smith.

I’m struggling to understand how The Book of Mormon is peripheral to Preaching The Gospel (one of the missions of the proselytising Mormon Church), when that Gospel is supposedly only found complete within it. Why does the Church print so many for its active sales force to give away when it’s merely a peripheral item?

There are three great reasons why Latter-day Saints should make the study of the Book of Mormon a lifetime pursuit.

The first is that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. This was the Prophet Joseph Smith’s statement. He testified that “the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion”

MG’ly has now pronounced it “peripheral”.

[I Have Questions]

I thought this article about giveaway signs you’re being conned by someone, interesting. It has many parallels with situations involving Joseph Smith, and current leaders.

De Becker calls forced teaming one of the most sophisticated manipulations.

You can clearly identify it when a stranger conjures a shared experience with you where none exists by using the pronouns "we" and "us" in phrases like "Now we've done it" or "We're some team."

Criminals use it to get closer to their victims by creating the illusion that you're both in the same boat. Moreover, most people are reluctant to deflect forced teaming because it's difficult to do so without seeming rude. This only adds to the criminal's advantage.

It exactly describes the process Smuth used to gain 11 witnesses. It’s also why the Church is quick to give people callings.

Every con, big or small, relies on one thing: distracting you from the obvious. One of the most obvious facts in a questionable situation is when you're approached by a stranger.

De Becker says that often times criminals will converse with their victims a little too much, feeding them too many details about false experiences in order to distract their victims from the obvious fact that the person doesn't know them at all.

Moreover, the reason criminals give too many details is a telling sign of their malintent:

"When people are telling the truth, they don't feel doubted, so they don't feel the need for additional support in the form of details. When people lie, however, even if what they say sounds credible to you, it doesn't sound credible to them, so they keep talking," de Becker writes.

Smith goes into great details about the papyrus, Missionaries keep talking. General Authorities answer the questions “you should have asked” etc.

Always be suspicious of a stranger who says "I promise."

Promises are "the very hollow instruments of speech," according to de Becker, because they do nothing more than reveal someone's attempt to convince you of something.

Whenever someone gives you an unsolicited promise, defend yourself by thinking: "You're right, I am hesitant about trusting you, and maybe with good reason. Thank you for pointing it out," De Becker writes.

Smith used promises to girls families as a means of coercing a relationship. General Authorities (they are strangers to 99% of members) are always promising big things that don’t materialise. What is a testimony - it’s a promise you’ve been given by a pair of strangers who knocked on your door.

Loan sharking is a technique con artists use to get you in their debt. They'll do something for you, like help carry groceries to your car, but will expect a greater favor in return.

Think about the missionary baseball and basketball programmes, it’s the Helping Hands programme, it’s why missionaries teach people in foreign countries English as a way in.

De Becker says that ignoring the word "no" is the most universally significant signal that you should not trust this person.

"Declining to hear 'no' is a signal that someone is either seeking control or refusing to relinquish it," de Becker writes later adding that, "If you let someone talk you out of the word 'no', you might as well wear a sign that reads, 'You are in charge.'"

That’s Mormon Leadership 101.

[MG 2.0]

As I mentioned to drumdude, if you've got something better to offer other than an annihilistic outcome when we take our last breath (apparently Gadianton's view)...I'm open to it.

It's not a question of me 'offering' you anything. It is a question of what is the case.

But you don't know any better (what is the case). That being so, I'll leave you to your own devices.

Nothing to offer.

Regards,
MG