The Church falls on its face with latest essay about women in the Church

[IWMP]

What I'm not understanding is why what I've said opposes everything else that has been said or why it is irrelevant.

The thread in general was discussing how the church states that there are women in service alongside males in leadership positions. There was mention of how there are the same group of women serving across multiple positions. So actually not many women, the same women in maybe many positions. I was expressing that if this is true then that's a lot of pressure to put on those women.

I really don't see how I am being irrelevant with that.

I don't really care that you are challenging me or whatever you want to call it Marcus, I'm pushing back because I don't understand why you are thinking I am saying things that aren't relevant or that are wrong. Multiple times I have had to explain what I have written. I believe relatively recently your response to something similar where I explained my position after the fact, your response was, "gotcha" (perhaps written differently). I don't see that there is anything wrong with me saying that is a lot of pressure and making a semi joke about service possibly being making cups of tea. I don't know if there's an expectation to stick to a certain script or expectations for specific responses to things. I really don't understand why I seem to need to explain what I mean as often as I do.

[MG 2.0]

What I'm not understanding is why what I've said opposes everything else that has been said or why it is irrelevant.

The thread in general was discussing how the church states that there are women in service alongside males in leadership positions. There was mention of how there are the same group of women serving across multiple positions. So actually not many women, the same women in maybe many positions. I was expressing that if this is true then that's a lot of pressure to put on those women.

I really don't see how I am being irrelevant with that.

I don't really care that you are challenging me or whatever you want to call it Marcus, I'm pushing back because I don't understand why you are thinking I am saying things that aren't relevant or that are wrong. Multiple times I have had to explain what I have written. I believe relatively recently your response to something similar where I explained my position after the fact, your response was, "gotcha" (perhaps written differently). I don't see that there is anything wrong with me saying that is a lot of pressure and making a semi joke about service possibly being making cups of tea. I don't know if there's an expectation to stick to a certain script or expectations for specific responses to things. I really don't understand why I seem to need to explain what I mean as often as I do.

Well said.

Don't let Marcus take too much of your 'mind energy'. My experience tells me that it is really not worth it. She's still going to come at you with one more 'gotcha' even if she essentially has to make it up out of whole cloth. That seems to be what gives her purpose.

I suppose, in a sense, we wouldn't want to take that away from her.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Note this sentence slipped in to the earlier essay I quoted above:

Hmm. No, they don't. I think Moksha pointed that out.

This got quoted so often in fast and testimony meeting when I was a member. It made me sick.

"I just love having access to the power of the priesthood through my husband" or even worse "I love having access through my 12 year old son."

That's brutal. I notice they left any reference to that out of the most recent essay. Maybe their PR people pointed out the issues.

[IWMP]

Note this sentence slipped in to the earlier essay I quoted above:

Hmm. No, they don't. I think Moksha pointed that out.

This got quoted so often in fast and testimony meeting when I was a member. It made me sick.

"I just love having access to the power of the priesthood through my husband" or even worse "I love having access through my 12 year old son."

I've never heard that but I can imagine it. Might be a bit different here. I don't think adults should use teenagers to "access" the priesthood. That sounds wrong.

[Marcus]

This got quoted so often in fast and testimony meeting when I was a member. It made me sick.

"I just love having access to the power of the priesthood through my husband" or even worse "I love having access through my 12 year old son."

That's brutal. I notice they left any reference to that out of the most recent essay. Maybe their PR people pointed out the issues.

I take that back, sort of. Further down the essay, there is this:

How do women access God’s priesthood power in their lives?

Priesthood power is God’s power. President Nelson explained that priesthood ordinances and covenants provide access to God’s power: “Every man and every woman who participates in priesthood ordinances and who makes and keeps covenants with God has direct access to the power of God.”

That's a clever way to obfuscate. Men and women can "access" the priesthood, by "participating" in priesthood ordinances.

Men 'participate' by performing the ordinances. Women 'participate' by being there and listening. If no man is there to perform the priesthood ordinance, no woman can access god's priesthood power.

What nonsense.

[IWMP]

My experience of gender in the church is that It does have an imbalance of gender in leadership. I don't know if I get what MG says about keeping the men on track, I don't think it's that deep. The church structure was well formed before women fought for liberty and some equality. We still see it today where men are paid more than women for the same jobs. How can a church be historically equal when society in general is not equal. If the church had true equality from the beginning then that foresight would be more convincing of it's "truth" than anything. But, on the other hand. We do look at responsibility through time. Women back then would have had a lot of hands on work that we don't have now because we have technology and devices that do jobs for us and shorten tasks.

Perhaps far too busy to take on big roles.

I do think though that there is an argument to say that from my experience at ward level, women were seen as special, as being gifted with the ability to bear children. They were respected in the wards I was in. They were involved, they supported their husbands in their callings.

I think it would be good if they considered bringing females into the top leadership roles. There were female prophets historically.

[IWMP]

That's brutal. I notice they left any reference to that out of the most recent essay. Maybe their PR people pointed out the issues.

I take that back, sort of. Further down the essay, there is this:

How do women access God’s priesthood power in their lives?

Priesthood power is God’s power. President Nelson explained that priesthood ordinances and covenants provide access to God’s power: “Every man and every woman who participates in priesthood ordinances and who makes and keeps covenants with God has direct access to the power of God.”

That's a clever way to obfuscate. Men and women can "access" the priesthood, by "participating" in priesthood ordinances.

Men 'participate' by performing the ordinances. Women 'participate' by being there and listening. If no man is there to perform the priesthood ordinance, no woman can access god's priesthood power.

What nonsense.

I haven't been endowned so I don't know but I was under the impression that women do perform ordinances in the temple. I have this vague thing in my mind where I'm sure women can give blessings of some kind. I might go look that up.

Do the men need women present to perform their temple ordinances?

[yellowstone123]

Missions are a great example. After finding a potential convert, female missionaries turn them over to the male missionaries for interviews, baptism and confirmation. The women do all the work and the men get to say how many people they baptized years later.

[IWMP]

Missions are a great example. After finding a potential convert, female missionaries turn them over to the male missionaries for interviews, baptism and confirmation. The women do all the work and the men get to say how many people they baptized years later.

How do female missionaries feel about that. I was rebaptised when pregnant with my daughter. I didn't know the male that did it. It was a female missionary that was pushing for it and I said I wanted to work through it and see if I can grow my faith before being baptised and in the end she was like I'm going home and I want to see you baptised before I go and next thing it all just went so fast and I was disappointed because I felt pressured but also didn't feel the spirit at all. I had wondered if all those years I hadn't felt the spirit because I hadn't properly been baptised when I was 8. I had always thought that it was that female missionaries point if you will.

[yellowstone123]

Missions are a great example. After finding a potential convert, female missionaries turn them over to the male missionaries for interviews, baptism and confirmation. The women do all the work and the men get to say how many people they baptized years later.

How do female missionaries feel about that. I was rebaptised when pregnant with my daughter. I didn't know the male that did it. It was a female missionary that was pushing for it and I said I wanted to work through it and see if I can grow my faith before being baptised and in the end she was like I'm going home and I want to see you baptised before I go and next thing it all just went so fast and I was disappointed because I felt pressured but also didn't feel the spirit at all. I had wondered if all those years I hadn't felt the spirit because I hadn't properly been baptised when I was 8. I had always thought that it was that female missionaries point if you will.

I sorry you went through that IWMP. The pressure the youth feel in a lot of situations in Mormonism is really unfair. Whether it’s the pressure to be baptized or the pressure to baptize more individuals as a missionary, there is a lot of pressure. I only stayed out in the mission field for a month so others have a lot more information from experience. Remember, New Testament writers place Jesus’s baptism at 30 which I believe now is a good example to follow.