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Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 6:34 pm
by I Have Questions
In an
article about his struggles to navigate the path of sexual identity whilst a member of the Church, Brett Evans relates this anecdote...
Then a different thought entered my mind: What if the church is wrong about this?
The overwhelming peace that followed that question was my sign, spiritual confirmation I had been seeking. It wasn’t the answer I expected, but it was the answer I needed. When I called my parents the following morning to tell them I was leaving the church, I explained what had happened during my prayer. I told them I had given everything I could to try to make it work, but I finally felt peace about walking away. My mother’s response stays with me: “You will always have a seat at our table. You’re always welcome in our home. And so is whomever you love.”
That was in 2016. I continued to sporadically attend church to support my parents, if we were together. Until 2021. That’s when Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave a speech at BYU warning against becoming too accepting of gay marriage. Holland suggested Mormons needed to do as the pioneers did, building the church with a shovel in one hand and a musket in the other—disturbing comments to a captive audience that may take it too literally. This was the final straw for some of my siblings, and they also left the church. Even my parents expressed concern and acknowledged that the church wasn’t the best place for me.
So there you are, Jeffrey Holland is personally responsible for the loss of some members and the break up of a potentially eternal family (as far as Mormonism is concerned). Bravo Jeff.
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 7:51 pm
by Moksha
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Tue Jul 15, 2025 6:34 pm
Until 2021. That’s when Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave a speech at BYU warning against becoming too accepting of gay marriage. Holland suggested Mormons needed to do as the pioneers did, building the church with a shovel in one hand and a
musket in the other—disturbing comments to a captive audience that may take it too literally.
One of the longest wars in history was the
Reconquista, with the Muslims and Spanish Catholics fighting over control of the Iberian Peninsula. It lasted for 781 years. I doubt that the Mormon - LGBTQ War will last that long, not that the Brethren cannot sustain their white hot anger for that long, but that Mormon allies will have moved on to other issues.
At least I hope so, since with the Mormon financial empire growing by leaps and bounds, they would have moved past muskets and would be into the era of Photon torpedoes.
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 3:16 am
by MG 2.0
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Tue Jul 15, 2025 6:34 pm
In an
article about his struggles to navigate the path of sexual identity whilst a member of the Church, Brett Evans relates this anecdote...
Then a different thought entered my mind: What if the church is wrong about this?
The overwhelming peace that followed that question was my sign, spiritual confirmation I had been seeking. It wasn’t the answer I expected, but it was the answer I needed. When I called my parents the following morning to tell them I was leaving the church, I explained what had happened during my prayer. I told them I had given everything I could to try to make it work, but I finally felt peace about walking away. My mother’s response stays with me: “You will always have a seat at our table. You’re always welcome in our home. And so is whomever you love.”
That was in 2016. I continued to sporadically attend church to support my parents, if we were together. Until 2021. That’s when Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave a speech at BYU warning against becoming too accepting of gay marriage. Holland suggested Mormons needed to do as the pioneers did, building the church with a shovel in one hand and a musket in the other—disturbing comments to a captive audience that may take it too literally. This was the final straw for some of my siblings, and they also left the church. Even my parents expressed concern and acknowledged that the church wasn’t the best place for me.
So there you are, Jeffrey Holland is personally responsible for the loss of some members and the break up of a potentially eternal family (as far as Mormonism is concerned). Bravo Jeff.
It is interesting how different folks listened to his talk and had different takeaways. Kind of like the experiment where different people were shown an automobile accident from various angles and perspectives with various descriptions of what had happened.
Many different and varying accounts were given by different individuals as to the 'truth' of what occured in the accident. But, of course, there was only one truth.
Regards,
MG
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 4:47 am
by Dr. Sunstoned
Perspectives will differ between people who see themselves holding the muskets, and the ones who the muskets are aimed at.
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 8:00 am
by I Have Questions
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 3:16 am
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Tue Jul 15, 2025 6:34 pm
In an
article about his struggles to navigate the path of sexual identity whilst a member of the Church, Brett Evans relates this anecdote... So there you are, Jeffrey Holland is personally responsible for the loss of some members and the break up of a potentially eternal family (as far as Mormonism is concerned). Bravo Jeff.
It is interesting how different folks listened to his talk and had different takeaways. Kind of like the experiment where different people were shown an automobile accident from various angles and perspectives with various descriptions of what had happened.
Many different and varying accounts were given by different individuals as to the 'truth' of what occured in the accident. But, of course, there was only one truth.
Regards,
MG
But there isn’t only one truth. What people perceive as the meaning of Holland’s talk, is their truth. People are in differing situations and will see and hear things within the context of their own situation. Holland as an Apostle should have been cognisant of that. The reality is that Holland’s talk, his poor choice of words, his careless choice of imagery, has resulted in people leaving the Church. His metaphorical musket fire killed some memberships. But that’s not the whole problem. It was a stupid thing to say. Holland was stupid.
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 4:17 pm
by MG 2.0
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 8:00 am
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 3:16 am
It is interesting how different folks listened to his talk and had different takeaways. Kind of like the experiment where different people were shown an automobile accident from various angles and perspectives with various descriptions of what had happened.
Many different and varying accounts were given by different individuals as to the 'truth' of what occured in the accident. But, of course, there was only one truth.
Regards,
MG
But there isn’t only one truth. What people perceive as the meaning of Holland’s talk, is their truth. People are in differing situations and will see and hear things within the context of their own situation. Holland as an Apostle should have been cognisant of that. The reality is that Holland’s talk, his poor choice of words, his careless choice of imagery, has resulted in people leaving the Church. His metaphorical musket fire killed some memberships. But that’s not the whole problem. It was a stupid thing to say. Holland was stupid.
You, of course, are entitled to have your own opinion in this matter.
Regards,
MG
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 4:21 pm
by sock puppet
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 4:17 pm
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 8:00 am
But there isn’t only one truth. What people perceive as the meaning of Holland’s talk, is their truth. People are in differing situations and will see and hear things within the context of their own situation. Holland as an Apostle should have been cognisant of that. The reality is that Holland’s talk, his poor choice of words, his careless choice of imagery, has resulted in people leaving the Church. His metaphorical musket fire killed some memberships. But that’s not the whole problem. It was a stupid thing to say. Holland was stupid.
You, of course, are entitled to have your own opinion in this matter.
Regards,
MG
Thank you, almighty MG 2.0 for deigning I Have Questions the obvious--to have his own opinions. I'm now so relieved that you have granted him such.
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 4:22 pm
by MG 2.0
sock puppet wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 4:21 pm
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 4:17 pm
You, of course, are entitled to have your own opinion in this matter.
Regards,
MG
Thank you, almighty MG 2.0 for deigning I Have Questions the obvious--to have his own opinions. I'm now so relieved that you have granted him such.
Yep.
Regards,
MG
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 5:32 pm
by I Have Questions
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 4:17 pm
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Mon Jul 21, 2025 8:00 am
But there isn’t only one truth. What people perceive as the meaning of Holland’s talk, is their truth. People are in differing situations and will see and hear things within the context of their own situation. Holland as an Apostle should have been cognisant of that. The reality is that Holland’s talk, his poor choice of words, his careless choice of imagery, has resulted in people leaving the Church. His metaphorical musket fire killed some memberships. But that’s not the whole problem. It was a stupid thing to say. Holland was stupid.
You, of course, are entitled to have your own opinion in this matter.
Regards,
MG
It’s not opinion. Holland’s talk was the catalyst to people leaving the church. See the OP. It’s a hard fact.
Re: Holland's "musket" speech caused people to leave the Church
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2025 5:43 pm
by sock puppet
Jeff Holland is likely one of those "called as an apostle" that prophets after Howard W. Hunter wished they could get a do-over. Holland is such a peach. Jumps to assumptions (like about the old copy of the Book of Mormon having been his great-grandfather's in the Carthage Jail), lies about the blood oaths against the U.S. that Mitt Romney's father and tens of thousands of other Mormons between 1845 and 1927--but he's self-proclaimed not to be a dodo bird--prayed and got told to take the wrong road in the forest but made an 'inspirational' talk out of it, predicting 100,000 missionaries by 2019, the musket speech--it goes on and on and on. Don't stop believin'. Hold on to that feelin'.