SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clergy Protection?

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Doctor Scratch
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SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clergy Protection?

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Quite a bizarre bit of spin-doctoring is underway over at SeN. The LDS Church has very rightly been criticized for its handling of child abuse issues, and the tendency for Church leaders to sweep the matter under the rug in order to "protect" the Church's reputation. So it is perhaps no surprise to see the Mopologist-in-Chief defending this idea:
I glanced through the comments from readers on this article earlier this morning and they seemed to run overwhelmingly — that is to say, with very, very few exceptions — to the view, strongly stated, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is wrong on this matter, uncaring toward children, harmful, and perhaps even evil, and that clergy privilege ought to be abolished, with reports to the authorities being legally mandated: “Latter-day Saint abuse help line and clergy privilege protect children best, church attorney says: ‘This is as valuable a tool as exists in the world to protect children,’ Randy Austin says at FAIR Conference” Several commenters seemed to believe that Randy Austin was being either willfully stupid or flatly dishonest.

It seems commonsensical obvious, of course, that requiring clergy to break confidentiality and report sexual abuse to legal authorities would lead to better outcomes for children. But surprisingly, as alluded to by Brother Austin, the data seem to contradict that idea. Josh Coates has shared the two following links with me:
  • “University of Michigan researchers find that mandatory reporting is correlated with lower rates of confirmed reports.” Of eighteen states studied, five required clergy to report (NE, NC, OK, RI, Texas) and six required it “sometimes” (LA, ME, MN, MO, PA, UT); the other seven had no clergy mandate (AR, DE, Florida, KS, KY, MA, Washington). The researchers found that there was a 10% lower reporting rate in the ones that mandated reporting for clergy.
  • “2017 Johns Hopkins School of Nursing study concludes that universal mandatory reporting is correlated with lower confirmed reports of abuse.” “Physical abuse reports made in Universal Mandatory Reporting states and territories were less likely to be confirmed. . . . Universal Mandatory Reporting can potentially lead to poorer outcomes. For example, more reports made but without sufficient evidence can divert valuable but limited resources from endangered children who are actually in need of protection.”
You are welcome to check out the links: these articles were both collected by the B.H. Roberts Foundation--presumably so that they could be used in exactly the manner that the Afore is using them: i.e., as Mopologetic defense of Church legal practices. The BHRF even offers up reassurances that the articles were written by "non-LDS" authors--authors who were *never* LDS, even!--apparently to reassure us that the information contained therein isn't "tainted" in some way.

But do these articles really say that the "abuse help line" and "clergy privilege protect children best"? Uh, no. Not by a long shot. Instead, both articles treat this complex topic in an appropriately objective and nuanced way, and they acknowledge the many complicated social factors that going into whether or not someone (a) actually reports an instance of suspected child abuse, or (b) whether the report turns out to be credible. But to take just the Johns Hopkins article: the summary of the report states that "Universal mandatory reporting may not be the answer for strengthening the protection of children victimized by physical abuse. Implementation of child protection policies must be exercised according to evidence to exert the fullest impact and benefit of these laws." Yes: that makes sense. But is that what "SeN" and the Church defenders are saying? No: they are saying that this Church "Bat-phone" is apparently sufficient, which flies in the face of the reports that seem to surface pretty much weekly about yet another LDS Church official engaged in some kind of horrific abuse. The Mopologetic stance is not one of, "Let's do everything we can to protect kids"; instead, it's "This church 'hotline' is sufficient, and any claims that we need to change is a hostile, anti-Mormon attack!"

The Afore's spin-doctoring of these research articles is thus very irresponsible and also pretty reprehensible. Not surprising, but still off-putting and disappointing.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Rivendale
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by Rivendale »

Comical how he is persuaded by the "data" in this case but he ignores the data regarding the scientific evidence for an ancient civilization in the millions.
Marcus
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by Marcus »

The most absurd comment I read on reddit about the clergy penitent privilege issue was from a Mormon arguing that the Mormon version was better than the catholic version because while catholics are required to maintain confidentiality, Mormons can use the ward structure to prevent abusers from having access to children... which of course means confidentiality is broken. Which, also of course, means there is no clergy penitent privilege in the LDS church. Mormons have always broken 'privilege', it wasn't until lawyers needed it in court to get LDS leaders and the LDS church off the hook for abuse that it became a thing.

Peterson's excuses are just as meaningless.

On another note, how do Kirton McConkie lawyers live with themselves? What a sickening way to make a living--defending the system that allows child abuse to flourish.
I Have Questions
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by I Have Questions »

I note that the studies quoted are about reporting rates. That’s not the same thing as rates of offending. The assumption being incorrectly hinted at by Peterson is that not having mandatory reporting by clergy reduces the amount of children being abused. That’s not what the report says. The report says that reporting rates by clergy diminish if they are mandated to report. No. crap. Sherlock. Offenders are less likely to confess when they know their priest is required to report their offending. But that in no way equates to saying that more offenders are being prevented from offending or reoffending by not mandating clergy to report confessions of child abuse. Nor does it equate to offending reducing or stopping AFTER the confession if the penitent knows the priest cannot report them.

It should also be noted that the studies achieve their conclusions this way…
We used a national data set of 204 414 children reported for physical abuse in 2013 to compare rates of total and confirmed reports by states or territories with and without UMR. We estimated odds and predicted probabilities of confirming a physical abuse report made by professional versus nonprofessional reporters, accounting for the moderating effect of UMR and individual-level characteristics.
These reports seem to be aimed at reaching the conclusion that religions want them to reach - that of universal non mandatory reporting, because then the religion cannot be found culpable of facilitating child abuse by not taking action. Which is what happened in the Catholic Church, and is now happening in the LDS Church. Turkeys do not estimate and predict anything that’s in favour of Thanksgiving.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Nolan
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by Nolan »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:25 pm
Comical how he is persuaded by the "data" in this case but he ignores the data regarding the scientific evidence for an ancient civilization in the millions.
The child abuse stuff is truly sick. The church is in the wrong.

But this reply? LOL, what is going on here?
As someone who has taken five bar exams…I think they are kind of a waste of life. - Utah Court Rules comment
drumdude
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by drumdude »

Nolan wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:36 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:25 pm
Comical how he is persuaded by the "data" in this case but he ignores the data regarding the scientific evidence for an ancient civilization in the millions.
The child abuse stuff is truly sick. The church is in the wrong.

But this reply? LOL, what is going on here?
He’s saying that DCP ignores the scientific consensus on the historicity of the Book of Mormon, but appeals to scientific data when it does suit whatever argument he needs to make to defend the church.

He’s inconsistent and a hypocrite.
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Rivendale
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by Rivendale »

Nolan wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:36 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:25 pm
Comical how he is persuaded by the "data" in this case but he ignores the data regarding the scientific evidence for an ancient civilization in the millions.
The child abuse stuff is truly sick. The church is in the wrong.

But this reply? LOL, what is going on here?
It is another example of an apologists who treats evidence regarding Mormonism like a cafeteria. If the data is critical of the church the data is treated as either biased or tainted. The church claims to be the gold standard in SA cases yet data from floodlit, Sam Young, Tim Kosnoff (Architect of Abuse, Heavens Helpline) show that SA cases have a strict protocol that does nothing to help the victim and everything to protect the church.

If the data is favorable for the church despite being robust or an outlier then it is embraced and celebrated.
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Nolan
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by Nolan »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:41 pm
Nolan wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:36 pm
The child abuse stuff is truly sick. The church is in the wrong.

But this reply? LOL, what is going on here?
He’s saying that DCP ignores the scientific consensus on the historicity of the Book of Mormon, but appeals to scientific data when it does suit whatever argument he needs to make to defend the church.

He’s inconsistent and a hypocrite.
Yeah, it sure sounds like this DCP guy is inconsistent. That comment was just, like, way out there, man.
As someone who has taken five bar exams…I think they are kind of a waste of life. - Utah Court Rules comment
Marcus
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by Marcus »

Nolan wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:36 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:25 pm
Comical how he is persuaded by the "data" in this case but he ignores the data regarding the scientific evidence for an ancient civilization in the millions.
The child abuse stuff is truly sick. The church is in the wrong.

But this reply? LOL, what is going on here?
The exmormon reddit regularly has topics on this, you didn't see them there?
Philo Sofee
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Re: SeN: Child Abusers Deserve Clegy Protection?

Post by Philo Sofee »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:43 pm
The most absurd comment I read on reddit about the clergy penitent privilege issue was from a Mormon arguing that the Mormon version was better than the catholic version because while catholics are required to maintain confidentiality, Mormons can use the ward structure to prevent abusers from having access to children... which of course means confidentiality is broken. Which, also of course, means there is no clergy penitent privilege in the LDS church. Mormons have always broken 'privilege', it wasn't until lawyers needed it in court to get LDS leaders and the LDS church off the hook for abuse that it became a thing.

Peterson's excuses are just as meaningless.

On another note, how do Kirton McConkie lawyers live with themselves? What a sickening way to make a living--defending the system that allows child abuse to flourish.
After multiple tens of millions of dollars are earned from ALL upper echelon LDS authorities, morality is irrelevant. They live high on the hog and money is their God.
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