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Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 1:05 am
by drumdude
To give credit where credit is due, DCP - much like Mitt Romney - is a pretty outspoken opponent of Trump and his ideas. Posted today at SeN, a defense of free speech in the face of some really fierce attacks from Trump's crew:
DCP wrote:Earlier this year, I participated in a conference on religious freedom and related subjects in Uzbekistan. One of the others who attended and presented there was Shima Baradaran Baughman, who was born in Iran and who is now Woodruff J. Deem Professor of Law at Brigham Young University. I’ve been impressed by an essay that she recently published in the Deseret News, not least because of the somewhat dramatic personal family story that she tells in it: “Perspective: The Constitution is not partisan — it protects us all: Having seen life without constitutional rights, I know why people across the world still long for America’s freedoms.”
And here is another article from the Deseret News, written by President Dallin H. Oaks, formerly professor and interim dean of the law school at the University of Chicago, former president of Brigham Young University, former associate justice of the Utah Supreme Court, and, of course, currently First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: “Perspective: Our inspired Constitution: The U.S. Constitution is the foundation for a well-ordered government of laws, and not of men.”
Apropos of these two Deseret News articles, I call your attention to three additional items:
The Wall Street Journal: “Pam Bondi Needs a Free Speech Tutorial: The Attorney General seems to think ‘hate speech’ is illegal. Charlie Kirk knew better.”
National Review: “Pam Bondi’s First Amendment Follies”
National Review: “Pam Bondi’s Ridiculous 24 Hours”
I think it worth reproducing here the full and complete text of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The reference here is to Congress. (Not coincidentally, Article 1 of the Constitution is about Congress, not about the Executive Branch or the Presidency.) However, I do not believe that, by saying that “Congress shall make no law. . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,” the Framers were intending to tell us that, while Congress may not make such a law, the executive branch of the Federal Government is at liberty to abridge free speech or freedom of the press at will, without such a law, by either real or threatened litigation or by presidential fiat or by imperial decree.
We've already seen the brethren hold the line on things like vaccines, in the face of some pretty harsh MAGA backlash. Do you think they have the ability to be a strong voice to return the traditional conservative movement back from the brink of all the Trump chaos? Mitt Romney certainly tried his hardest, and sadly failed.
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 1:51 am
by Kishkumen
I'm just going to come out and say it:
The LDS Church's responsible handling of COVID-19 and those high-profile Mormon politicians who have stood up against Trump, as well as Daniel Peterson's opposition to Trumpism, profoundly changed my attitude about the LDS Church and its defenders for the better. I am not planning on going back to the LDS Church, but I will not pursue criticism of the LDS Church the way I did in the past.
They must be doing *SOMETHING* right. The people in my life who have shown the most moral clarity on the issue of Trumpism have been LDS. Granted, most of these people were older conservatives, but this was the generation I was raised by and most connected to. Now, the prominent LDS Trumpers, on the other hand, strike me as being out of their minds. I wouldn't trust them farther than I can throw them. I don't blame the Church for them, although I wish there were more that could be done to help LDS Trumpers recover their sanity and moral compass.
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:31 pm
by Doctor Scratch
Yes, I definitely think they deserve credit for acting rationally on some of the topics you mentioned. I don't know that it necessarily "balances the scales" in terms of other, more problematic stances/behaviors, but you are right that credit should be given where it's due.
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 7:35 pm
by Kishkumen
Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:31 pm
Yes, I definitely think they deserve credit for acting rationally on some of the topics you mentioned. I don't know that it necessarily "balances the scales" in terms of other, more problematic stances/behaviors, but you are right that credit should be given where it's due.
Indeed! I am not rushing to the chapel.
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2025 7:03 pm
by MG 2.0
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 7:35 pm
Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:31 pm
Yes, I definitely think they deserve credit for acting rationally on some of the topics you mentioned. I don't know that it necessarily "balances the scales" in terms of other, more problematic stances/behaviors, but you are right that credit should be given where it's due.
Indeed! I am not rushing to the chapel.
This morning I listened to this talk by Elder Holland:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng
Many here might have a hard time stomaching anything any thing he has to say as a result of misunderstanding some things he has said. A powerful point he makes in this talk is that we might benefit from moving forward in faith because of what we DO know/believe rather than what we don’t know or have questions about. He says it much better than me.
It is worth the listen, even if you’re a full fledged doubter.
He’s a good man, not a dodo as some here might unreasonably expect/believe. His witness of Christ in this talk is powerful.
Regards,
MG
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2025 7:20 pm
by Res Ipsa
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 1:51 am
I'm just going to come out and say it:
The LDS Church's responsible handling of COVID-19 and those high-profile Mormon politicians who have stood up against Trump, as well as Daniel Peterson's opposition to Trumpism, profoundly changed my attitude about the LDS Church and its defenders for the better. I am not planning on going back to the LDS Church, but I will not pursue criticism of the LDS Church the way I did in the past.
They must be doing *SOMETHING* right. The people in my life who have shown the most moral clarity on the issue of Trumpism have been LDS. Granted, most of these people were older conservatives, but this was the generation I was raised by and most connected to. Now, the prominent LDS Trumpers, on the other hand, strike me as being out of their minds. I wouldn't trust them farther than I can throw them. I don't blame the Church for them, although I wish there were more that could be done to help LDS Trumpers recover their sanity and moral compass.
Good points, I think. If I recall correctly, the church was a moderating voice on immigration as well. Although there are many US members who are radicalized politically, the confrontational "debate me, bro" culture of TPUSA is something that runs counter to leadership's message. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall to listen to the discussion between Tyler and his family about Charlie Kirk.
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2025 11:33 am
by I Have Questions
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 19, 2025 7:03 pm
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 7:35 pm
Indeed! I am not rushing to the chapel.
This morning I listened to this talk by Elder Holland:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng
Many here might have a hard time stomaching anything any thing he has to say as a result of misunderstanding some things he has said. A powerful point he makes in this talk is that we might benefit from moving forward in faith because of what we DO know/believe rather than what we don’t know or have questions about. He says it much better than me.
It is worth the listen, even if you’re a full fledged doubter.
He’s a good man, not a dodo as some here might unreasonably expect/believe. His witness of Christ in this talk is powerful.
Regards,
MG
The Book of Mormon musical
articulates Jeff’s point rather nicely…
I believe-
That the Lord God created the universe.
I believe-
That he sent his only son to die for my sins.
And I believe-
That ancient Jews built boats and sailed
to America.
I am a Mormon.
And a Mormon just believes.
The problem is that you can apply that type of thinking to anything. Flat earthers can just believe the earth is flat, Scientologists can just believe in Thetans, followers of the Jedi religion can just believe in the force. And so on. Holland is simply saying people should believe in whatever they want regardless of evidence. It’s a cheap feel-good tactic. Holland offers nothing but snake oil in that talk you referenced. And then encourages you to just believe that it works. Had you been born and raised in Scientology you’d be posting links to talks by Tom Cruise where he says essentially the exact same thing as Holland. And you would, just believe.
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2025 1:15 pm
by Chap
I Have Questions wrote: ↑Sat Sep 20, 2025 11:33 am
The Book of Mormon musical articulates Jeff’s point rather nicely…
I believe-
That the Lord God created the universe.
I believe-
That he sent his only son to die for my sins.
And I believe-
That ancient Jews built boats and sailed
to America.
I am a Mormon.
And a Mormon just believes.
I saw that on Broadway years ago, and enjoyed it very much. I remember the words a little differently, but as the singer went though this passage, I sensed what we may called a 3-stage audience reaction going on around me ...
I believe-
That the Lord God Almighty created the universe.
[Audience in general: well, OK ...]
I believe-
That he sent his only son Jesus Christ to die for us.
[Large parts of NY audience: Count us out on that. ]
And I believe-
That ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America.
[Entire audience: ???!!???]
I am a Mormon.
And Mormons just believe.
[Entire audience: evidently yes ...]
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2025 5:16 pm
by Philo Sofee
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 1:51 am
I'm just going to come out and say it:
The LDS Church's responsible handling of COVID-19 and those high-profile Mormon politicians who have stood up against Trump, as well as Daniel Peterson's opposition to Trumpism, profoundly changed my attitude about the LDS Church and its defenders for the better. I am not planning on going back to the LDS Church, but I will not pursue criticism of the LDS Church the way I did in the past.
They must be doing *SOMETHING* right. The people in my life who have shown the most moral clarity on the issue of Trumpism have been LDS. Granted, most of these people were older conservatives, but this was the generation I was raised by and most connected to. Now, the prominent LDS Trumpers, on the other hand, strike me as being out of their minds. I wouldn't trust them farther than I can throw them. I don't blame the Church for them, although I wish there were more that could be done to help LDS Trumpers recover their sanity and moral compass.
Agreed entirely. If there are Mormons who side with Bondi, they obviously don't realize she and Trump are enemies #1 against freedom for missionaries to go out into the world. It's astonishing ANY Mormon would side with Trump, but also accept Bondi? Good Lord I now feel it incumbent upon me to PRAY with all my heart for those Mormons that the Holy Spirit (FOR REAL) will at least begin to guide them for crying out loud.
If they'll come for comedians and health care, religion cannot escape the Gulag.
Re: Mormonism as a possible safe harbor for anti-MAGA conservatives?
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2025 8:28 pm
by Marcus
They must be doing *SOMETHING* right.
Except for the sexism, the racism, the bigotry, the protecting of predators, the money hoarding, the belief in fake history, etc., etc., etc.